I'm wondering whether anyone else has a problem that seems like the "opposite" of what's usually discussed: an inability to feel angry.
I know I have reason to be angry: a uNPD parent, a similarly abuse sibling, renewed harassment that threatens my financial security (which is tenuous in any case). I know I spent decades trying to dodge the abuse, both physical and emotional, while never naming it until about 25 years ago, when I finally went NC.
But I don't have the usual "problems" with anger, the response I hear and read about.
Rather, I feel distressed but not enraged, though I don't think I deserved any of this treatment and I don't feel guilty about going NC. Intellectually, I'm sorry for my abusers. I'm pretty sure my parent suffered something horrible, and I know my sibling did.
I have dissociation and emotional flashbacks (frequently of late). I've read Pete Walker on "angering" as a way to respond to memories. I've been trying to learn grounding techniques. I've also been learning some somatic responses to CPTSD. Still, no overt anger.
Does anyone else have this experience?
Good question. To me anger is an emotion and it can be felt quietly or it can be felt overtly as you mention. There's a range from irritation to rage. But it's a feeling not necessarily with defined parameters for how its expressed. If you're feeling distressed and anxious this sounds maybe like some form of anger that isn't processed. Not sure and maybe others have more or different thoughts.
Illustrations like this help me understand.
(https://www.cptsd.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ritholtz.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2FPlutchiks-Wheel-of-Emotions.jpg&hash=5ca27743b7a6791397ee0acacb5c4de704995907)
I love that illustration Butterfly. Thank you for sharing.
I kind of understand where you are coming from. I have no problem feeling anger but I have troubles feeling anger towards the right people. I would so much rather be angry at myself for what happened to me, than be mad at those that abused me. For some reason I would much rather be mad at myself for letting what happened to me happen, than to be mad at my brothers for hurting me and steal my innocence. I am not sure why this is the way it is but I know that it stinks. I guess it is easier to blame myself for letting me down than to think that not only did all three brothers, but so did my parents. They (brothers) were the ones that caused all this pain, and they (my parents) ignored what was going on. So I guess that even though I was a child I thought that somehow I should have stopped what was going on.
Now, realistically I understand that none of it was my fault, that I was too young to prevent or understand any of it. Trying to tell myelf that though and actually believing it is a whole other story. With any type of abuse, the brain is not hardwired like the brains of those who have not. No two minds are alike so even though anger may be a response most feel in an abuse situation, that does not mean that if another person reacts another way that it is wrong. We are all entitled to our reactions and emotions and even though it is not the norm, it is okay.
I hope that this helps a little, even though I know that my situation is not the same as yours. sending massive :hug:
Thank you for the responses. Butterfly, the diagram is intriguing. It implies that annoyance (which I have in excess sometimes) might qualify as anger. And, IFeelSoAlone, you may be right about anger self-directed.
I have much to be angry about. Lately, my FOO has seriously undermined my stability, both emotional and financial. I should be furious. The few close friends who know about these developments are. But I seem unable to access the rage. I've been experiencing lots of EFs, but I find myself explaining the abuse (NPD parent was abused too, maybe even worse . . . ).
I think I "should" be rip-roaring mad. This phase (if that's what it is) seems like a place to get stuck.
i become increasingly convinced this is the reason i can't feel appropriate anger at the people who abused me, (tho i can feel plenty - to other car drivers, for example :pissed:) and buckets of the stuff towards myself...
... to me it seems that in the periods when i was being abused, i was also powerless, either to stop it or to escape from it. and becos of that, in survival terms, i couldn't affordto feel anger at them.
even so, someone had to pay, someone had to cop for all the anger and punishment they deserved, and the only person i had any power over was me, so the person who copped for it was -yup. basically me.
at all costs, i had to explain/justify/excuse/protect the people who were doing it to me. becos i needed them in order to survive in that 'now', more than i needed them to stop for the sake of my putative 'future'.
and i am still doing it becos i still deep down believe myself to be powerless and dependent, even tho i am not any more. if that makes any sense.
that said, i don't feel any closer to resolving this. it's like it happened to someone else. i can intellectualise it, but i can't get close enough to touch it.
Arpy1, that's exactly it. I can grasp it, explain it, intellectualize it but not actually feel it. I've been angry, so I know the feeling of anger. But I somehow get sidetracked with explanations in my head (they were abused too; they had fewer resources than I did; . . . ). The same kind of thinking leads me to know I "should" be angry. But I can't access the emotion.
Maybe I, too, am engaging in outdated self-protection, directing anger inward because there was no other choice. But I think as a child I was angrier. I knew something was wrong. I even fought back every now and then (and "earned" the cuts and bruises in return). But now, decades later, I'm more resigned. Perhaps I think I "should' have dealt with all this long ago and so have no "right" to be angry now.
Nothing I express now will be heard by anyone but my T and a few close friends. Anger should be safe.
So, Woodsgnome, maybe I need a secluded place to practice, as you can in the woods. I do live alone and would have to make a lot of noise to be heard "angering" out loud. But I have no impulse to express what I don't really feel.
Walker talks about regaining the "fight response," at least for people like me who are all inner critic and no outer critic. That formulation makes sense. Regaining some fight may well mean accessing anger.
yup. me too, everything you said.
QuoteI even fought back every now and then (and "earned" the cuts and bruises in return). But now, decades later, I'm more resigned.
yes, well, that's what the cuts and bruises were designed to teach you. you had to learn that one well.
QuotePerhaps I think I "should' have dealt with all this long ago and so have no "right" to be angry now. Nothing I express now will be heard by anyone but my T and a few close friends. Anger should be safe.
... yeah but they aren't thumping you about to teach you that, so it doesn't sink in so well. and... omg ...
anger should be safe?????... that just does not compute. for me that is a scary concept.
QuoteBut I have no impulse to express what I don't really feel.
... i wish we could just, like,
decide to access the fight-back thing, or the healthy-anger thing. but it doesn't seem to work that way. my T said today that understanding it, saying out, that's me taking a step forward. yah de yah... i just want it to be better. i don't want to wait till it percolates up from my subconscious somehow and slowly straightens out my soul.
Arpy1, yes, me too -- that is, I just want to get better, to have my head filled with something other than EFs and fear.
My fight response, though, seems to be used up or at least depleted. When I fought harder, as a child in particular, the response put me in danger. I'm not in danger now, at least physically, so far. That's what I meant by anger being "safe." It's safe to, in my own space without no one else around. I've been NC with abusers for a very long time.
I've been trying to access that anger for a while, but it doesn't percolate much. Instead, I'm worn out.
please keep talking on this one, i have a feeling that it might be helpful.
i know what you mean about 'worn out'. i sleep so much at the moment. and the anger thing, yes, i see what you mean. maybe that's why the anger i do feel is directed at people i can't interact with, like other car drivers. safe. i can shout and scream at them from behind my wheel and the only sign they could possibly see is a certain digit pointing heavenwards... could mean anything... i might have been scratching my nose... ;D )
funny, but this a.m. in session, my T said to me that when she read my early childhood memory writing that i did for the ict work, it seemed to her like i was talking about somebody else's experiences, not my own. and i could see what she meant. becos it does feel like someone else's story. it leaves me feeling completely nothing.
i wonder how to get in touch with that little girl? is that what the inner child therapy is about? ( :doh: that sounds like a stupid question, but honestly, i really don't know much about this stuff) and i cannot imagine how it could possibly work.
Arpy1, I don't know whether inner child work is a route to anger, somehow expressed. Surely, a great many people with CPTSD have causes of anger that stem from their childhoods.
My T doesn't go there, and so far (in the past six months or so since I returned to therapy), I haven't either. I've rather been addressing the present, trying to find a way forward.
But anger seems elusive. I started thinking about it when I read Pete Walker about two months ago. I had read a bit about CPTSD, long ago, but his book seemed to speak directly to me. Thing is: I'm all inner critic and no outer critic. I don't do road rage (instead, I pull over the side and let the raging roadie pass). I duck and cover, bob and weave, always trying to position myself to please. I have ongoing issues with boundaries -- that is, even when I think I've set them, often, someone ignores my limits. Clearly, I'm not convincing enough.
I tell myself, occasionally, that I "should" be angry. And yet I also think I should have handled whatever situation it was better.
hmm. i don't know either. perhaps time will make it clearer? :blink:
boundaries is interesting.
maybe if we cld do firm boundaries, we would know how to get angry at people who try to violate them?
maybe that's a starting point - to work on learning how to do firmer boundaries. (you're probably way ahead of me here)
and it's a lot more pro-active and positive too, which has to be less exhausting than keep poking myself to see what i am feeling or not.
hmm, thanks, stillhere. that's given me food for thought.
:hug: :hug:
For the past few years (four or five years?), I've been thinking that my poor boundary-setting skills were a leftover problem from my FOO, most especially my NPD mother. I didn't think much of the problem. Lately, however, it's caused me some serious problems, and I'm thinking more and more that it's bigger than I had expected.
I tend to try please and so allow people to walk all over any boundaries I might want to have. I can get angry if the violations are severe and ongoing. I've even learned that, when I get angry, it's usually retroactive, as I recognize violations I should have seen and acted on long before.
But I'm don't get angry quickly. And I don't feel anger at my FOO, which would be appropriate. "Angering" in that direction doesn't, so far, get me any relief or sense of progress.
You're right these are related concerns.
Anger is so central to my core, with regard to cptsd, it's hard for me to say anything without turning a post into a book ...I've already tried several takes on this, but get lost in my own feelings. So here's try #6+ or thereabouts.
Childhood/adolescence was a war. My only passion since has been peace. Physically, I've accomplished that in spades. If I need a label, I found it in Walker's description of the "freeze" approach. And, as he points out, it isn't all "bad". It's a logical response to pain, no judgements required. Trouble is, it took me a long time to get a grip on it. The work in progress syndrome.
The peaceful outside I achieved was countered by the inner anger. I used to consider that a failure. Not anymore. I don't harbour any more guilt that I should understand the people of my wars. They gave no surrender, and I've lost interest in trying to figure them out. I can't do it—if I indeed broke with them, the only sure closure is to cut off the inner war with myself as well.
It bothered that I didn't have this inner-outer consistency. And then the light bulb called "why" grew stronger. Why should I feel guilty about anger? I don't equate this anger with road rage or personal confrontation (my take is like yours, stillhere—get out of their way). Maybe it's part of why some people like me—I don't bug 'em (I'm "freeze"-type scared of 'em, is more like it). :thumbup: :thumbdown:
Outer anger just never surfaces. The inner is big-time eternal. Once I accepted that—there's nothing magical about the relief I feel. For example, I'll be doing something; the inner critic "voice" comes in, and if it seems like the sort an abuser planted, I reject it appropriately (if in public, I speak inwardly; if home, shout it out...it might even amuse the cat). I used to feel silly about thinking this way; Walker's book changed me around on it--'cause it helps, period.
EF's still sneak in on me. Last week I was triggered by the eye contact thread; spent an awful night where no amount of "angering" worked. The memory flood broke the wall. I eventually surrendered to it, but it's not a defeat, it's just the nature of things, I guess. The crying came naturally, too; used to judge myself as silly for doing that, as well; but not anymore (most of the time ;)).
So that's a part of what I feel on the topic. As IfeelSoAlone said in a post here, we all seem to have different ways to deal with the deck we were dealt. Our reactions are perfectly natural; the hard part is feeling right about what started out so wrong. We were left on our own, abandoned to being alone with all this grief and pain. That angers me, which I accepted better once I realized there's no right/wrong to feeling angry; it just is.
Nice discussion here; thanks for bringing it up, stillhere.
Woodsgnome, you seem to have learned "angering" (as Walker explains). You marshal internal resources to respond when anger is appropriate. It's that skill that I think I need to learn. I need to "talk back" or at least respond to my inner critic with anger enough to counter that voice. I've become so accustomed to the voice that I mostly accept its messages. I think learning to respond to it is the task ahead.
I'm responding 'top-of-the-head' here (I'm in a bit of a state, can't think straight. But this is from the heart. For what it's worth):
When I went to get my SCID-II test the psychologist said to me: "Uncle, some people just don't accept any boundaries."
I too have long struggled with 'feeling' or 'expressing' anger. I still suck at it, I'm afraid.
For me, having lived so long in an environment of people who don't accept/acknowledge any boundaries, not even those 'vented' by anger, rage, fist-thumping, yelling, screaming etc etc has simply made me give up on expressing anger. It never worked.
But nothing else ever worked either.
It has worked with other people though. Normal people. And today I'm not shy to call them normal, and the others abnormal. :pissed:
Sure, I've went to far at times. At the normal people.
I apologized.
Things usually returned to normal after that.
I can't show normal anger, since I've been for so long confronted by people who don't care if I'm angry or not.
Most people do though.
I may learn.
:hug:
Recently, I've found huge relief from what's called "angering". Now I know what works in that regard for me. But one time it went horribly bad, so a few words in case anyone might consider what I once tried. Not saying it wouldn't work--but I learned it doesn't always pan out, either.
I was in a 5 night "intensive" group that featured lots of interactive stuff, mostly voluntary. The participants were random--we didn't know each other previously. It was a group of 12 overall periodically split into 3-4 person smaller sessions. One of the techniques I was impressed by was what was a "safe" anger release technique that some had tried. It seemed to have had a positive outcome for them, so despite being hesitant I was so eager to shed my pent-up anger that I volunteered to give it a go. It was "safe", right?
The leader (not a T) carefully set out the procedure and ground rules--2 or 3 fellow volunteers agreed to take on the "role/voices" of an abuser; I taught them the words that triggered me, and they did the "role".
The recipient, in this case me, had a rubber bat with which to hit a pillow if they wanted, and could vocalize anything in whatever fashion short of overt harm. I'd seen the relief from others, was eager, and it started okay.
They performed their roles, said the words, and my anger flared at the memories they induced. It went horribly sour, though, when all of a sudden I started to shift the most intense anger back on myself, boomerang-style. All that hate I turned on me. The role-players continued, 'til it was obvious I was in great distress. In retrospect, I feel the leader let it roll on too long, but more to the point, I realized how deep-seated my self-hatred really was. I turned all that :pissed: anger back on myself.
I only bring it up here to make others aware of rushing into even a "safe" procedure. Whenever anger is involved, it can get a little crazy. Bottom line for me is that I discovered the depths of my self-hate. Sure, I suppose it could have been better guided, but I was sooo eager to experience the joy of even temporary relief. It was one of those desperate things we try on this lousy trip with cptsd.
Quote from: woodsgnome on September 04, 2015, 06:04:09 PM
But one time it went horribly bad, so a few words in case anyone might consider what I once tried. [...]
:hug: , woodsgnome.
and :hug: again. :sadno:
:hug:
It's possible that you process anger quickly on the spot and you're done so it doesn't get bottled up etc.
my daughter has always been like that. She gets mad quickly then talks about it right away and after ten minutes she's over it. She is one of those people who talks to herself out loud and I think that helps her.
Quote from: tired on November 12, 2015, 02:59:29 AM
She is one of those people who talks to herself out loud and I think that helps her.
I've started to talk out loud to myself as well, about two years ago.
It's been a great tool to get a lot of unresolved anger out.
It has also made me more assertive when I need to be angry 'on the spot'. I don't get mad, I don't fly into a rage or anything, I can now more articulate in addressing what I perceive as a boundary violation. And I have found the courage now to raise my voice as well when needed. Shout even: "No, No, NO!" :pissed:
just re-read this thread and it's really useful. however i don't feel i have made much progress in the last couple of months in the things we've talked about. the whole idea of boundaries and asserting my right to say NO is such a hot potato for me. i have to sidle round the edges of the subject to avoid getting triggered into panic and melt down. ho hum...