ok, this is an first attempt at doing a 'new topic'. hope it works!
someone asked if i would put a link, in a new topic, to this very interesting article about the 'mechanics', if you like, of relationships and narcissistic personality.
it particularly helped me as it deals with the whole aspect of cult involvement but it also is very good on what it is like growing up with a np.
i certainly found it helpful so i hope others will too.
www.icsahome.com/articles/the-relational-system-of-the-traumatizing-narcissist
Thanks.
I've read the first bit on what a cult is, and the narcissistic leader.
It's well written, and will read the rest tomorrow.
Off to bed now. :wave:
Quote from: Daniel Shaw - "The Relational System of the Traumatizing Narcissist"
Unable to truly separate from the abusing parent, they may spend a lifetime trying to persuade themselves that they are not the unlovable, bad persons they were made to feel they were. Taking on this badness, which Fairbairn called the child's "moral defense" (Fairbairn, 1952), is the children's best shot at believing the parent is good—it is too horrible to believe that the one they totally depend on is truly bad. Better to take on the burden of the badness, and try and try again to redeem themselves. When the children grow older, and even acknowledge the badness in the parent, the internalized sense of badness is still very difficult to free themselves from. To me, these persons are not merely depressed, or anxious, or deflated—they have lost the battle to develop and assert their own subjectivity; they have been forced to accept objectification; they have had to submit their own subjectivity to the subjectivity of the other.
Good grief. The bolded part really has hit home.
The
italicized part I can only hope I'm in now, and win the battle at last after all.
I'll have to digest this a bit before I continue to read the last bit on the ties this all has with cults.
Thanks arpy1, a very interesting and thought-provoking article indeed. :thumbup:
Thanks so much arpy. It's an incredible read, I felt the shock of recognition many times, especially in the section Dutch Uncle quoted. I wonder if there's a word to describe the simultaneous feelings of grief and thankfulness you get when someone nails it like this.
i was exactly the same, and each time i have read it, the same again. and ditto that paragraph, me too. it explained so much and validated my own experience. i actually have it bookmarked so i can reassure myself from time to time that it wasn't all my fault. i recognised my dad's behaviours, my ex's, the cult leader's, my brother's... such a relief.
Good one Arpy. This is a very good article; thanks for creating this thread.
coda,
QuoteIt's an incredible read, I felt the shock of recognition many times, especially in the section Dutch Uncle quoted. I wonder if there's a word to describe the simultaneous feelings of grief and thankfulness you get when someone nails it like this.
Personally, I like your phrase "the shock of realization"; for me, that fits it so perfectly because that is way I have felt over and over again, especially pertaining to this particular statement of Dutch's:
Quotethey have lost the battle to develop and assert their own subjectivity; they have been forced to accept objectification; they have had to submit their own subjectivity to the subjectivity of the other.
Thinking about "a word to describe simultaneous feelings of grief and thankfulness", I would call it grace; not to be religious here... but for me, grace comes at a time when I can't necessarily put things together for myself but relief in some form comes from somewhere... does that make sense to anyone else?
Quote from: Lifecrafting on September 01, 2015, 12:50:11 PM
Thinking about "a word to describe simultaneous feelings of grief and thankfulness", I would call it grace; not to be religious here... but for me, grace comes at a time when I can't necessarily put things together for myself but relief in some form comes from somewhere... does that make sense to anyone else?
As a non-native English speaker (and agnostic) I can only say: I adore your definition of "Grace". :thumbup:
Grace.
Relief.
How utterly beautiful, Lifecrafting. Something golden and true and hopeful that goes beyond words. You don't have to believe in religion to belive in those fleeting moments of recognition and revelation. They're empowering.
To become Subject and not Object -- this actually startled me. Never saw it so plainly. And plainly, the work of my lifetime. To be my own protagonist, inside and out.
Quote from: arpy1 on September 01, 2015, 12:06:21 PM
i actually have it bookmarked so i can reassure myself from time to time that it wasn't all my fault. i recognised my dad's behaviours, my ex's, the cult leader's, my brother's... such a relief.
I bookmarked it too - illuminating and reassuring. It makes perfect sense that people raised to accept/model/survive controlling behaviors will accept, maybe overlook, maybe even unconsciously be drawn to, what those with a secure center will reject. He also makes a good point about how people can
become vulnerable, as natural born seekers of something that seems to offer more intensity, deeper meaning. I think an awful lot of interpersonal abuse starts that way.
I think I also agree with his premise that narcissistic abusers are themselves the product of psychic trauma, and are unaware of what they do. Does that absolve them? There's no doubt they're dangerous, no doubt of the damage they do, no doubt we mustn't subject ourselves...but how do we "blame" someone without real self-awareness? I guess we "simply" avoid them, and then work through the guilt and pain on our own.
grace - yes it is a beautiful word. i always thought it means something good that is undeserved or unlooked for. like a surprise gift when it's not your birthday. lovely
QuoteIt makes perfect sense that people raised to accept/model/survive controlling behaviors will accept, maybe overlook, maybe even unconsciously be drawn to, what those with a secure center will reject. He also makes a good point about how people can become vulnerable, as natural born seekers of something that seems to offer more intensity, deeper meaning. I think an awful lot of interpersonal abuse starts that way.
(btw, Yay, coda, did u notice the quote thing???? i did it :fireworks:)
that's interesting, becos i must have been doubly vulnerable... so
that's what my T has been trying to get me to see!
as to whether or not these people are aware of what they do or not, i agree it's probably irrelevant for those of us who suffered for it. we just need to avoid them and get free.
i have to say that whilst people like my dad, my ex, were/are certainly unaware, i do think some people tend towards the socio/psychopathics end of the spectrum, and, firmly convinced of their own 'rightness', lack that empathy which might allow them to see the terrible consequences for anyone else, of their actions (and here i am thinking of the leader of the cult i was in. he became increasingly intractable as time went on, until he was completely unchallengeable and those who tried, well, enuf said. his need for absolute control precluded any ability he may have started out with to empathise.) sorry. rant over.
Quote from: arpy1 on September 01, 2015, 04:18:01 PM
as to whether or not these people are aware of what they do or not, i agree it's probably irrelevant for those of us who suffered for it. we just need to avoid them and get free.
I concur. :thumbup:
So, I did read the last bit.
It reminds me of (s)mother, LOL. With what I call her 'new age babble'. She definitely has her guru's. Thank goodness I steered clear of them, even if I was close to being dragged in at times. I only see that now that I've started to get out of the FOG some years ago.
Quote from: Daniel Shaw - "The Relational System of the Traumatizing Narcissist"Perhaps most unfortunately, many people have been recruited into cultic groups by their therapists—therapists may have signs on display in their offices of a particular group with which they are affiliated, such as photos of the leader,altars, books, recordings, incense, and other paraphernalia.
Yep, that's my mother's 'office'. But with me she never needed her office :pissed: .
Thanks for posting this, arpy1. :thumbup:
Many thanks for the link arpy, it was a really hard and at the same time inspiring read; hard because it nails the traumatizing N and makes abundantly clear the damage they inflict (it's still hard to see that captured in black and white), and relief because it is becoming so much clearer every day that NPDs wreck havoc on those caught in their web. I like the idea of using the term "traumatizing NPD" to drive home the point that a narcissistic is not merely someone who has a benign love or self, but is someone who causes major chaos and damage to those around them.
I do take some issue with Shaw's suggestion that there are only two paths children of traumatizing N's can take: The first, "To me, these persons are not merely depressed, or anxious, or deflated—they have lost the battle to develop and assert their own subjectivity; they have been forced to accept objectification; they have had to submit their own subjectivity to the subjectivity of the other." It's a struggle to be sure, but I don't believe I "lost the battle," To me this implies that our subjective sense of self is gone and I haven't found that to be the case.
Instead I've been finding my subjective self, reigniting and reinforcing it, bringing it to the surface and integrating into a whole sense of who I am. So, I do see a third path for those of us with CPTSD; that is, recovery and integration of our subjective selves.
The second path for children of traumatizing N I've seen firsthand in my Golden Child B who ended up becoming a traumatizing N himself. "The other path I can identify that adult children of the traumatizing narcissist can take, as I mentioned earlier, is to do what the traumatizing narcissist has done: Erect manic defenses against any sense of weakness, need, and badness, and project all the shameful affects out of themselves, and into others." Sad but enough stress and trauma will tip the scales into NPD.
@ arpy1.
I see in your posts a lot of references to your time in the cult.
I must say that I do struggle with my protestant (Calvinist) upbringing, the new 'Faith' my mother later embraced (New Agism) (and to which I tried to adept, in some ways detrimental to my development).
I think that for me it might be worthwhile to investigate my 'religious abuse'.
For one I struggle with two things
**possible trigger**
(highlight to see)
- I sometimes have the scary feeling my mom wants to see me nailed to The Cross, so she can be revered as Mother Mary. Grieving of course, but yet being the one who brought 'Goodness' into the world. She did, if only I were to fulfill my role.
- sometimes I think my father doesn't mind me hanging on The Cross either. Being the Father and all, or being Abraham having to answer God's Call. Sacrificing your Son is a good thing. The Ultimate Goodness even.
I don't know if you want to even go there (your religious abuse/experiences in the cult), but if you want, if you then would find it valuable to open a thread on the matter.
Given the nature of the sensitivities surrounding religion, I will first ask the mods/site owner to ponder such a delicate issue.
Not in the least since I already 'screwed up royally' for meddling in such issues, entering it with a 'stretched leg' (football/soccer reference: I guess the US-equivalent would be 'entering it as a quarterback'(?) )
I have become a 'Humanist' during my time of coming 'Out of the FOG', and it's been both a major asset, but also a major trigger for facing/reliving 'religion'. In fact, I think that joining the 'Humanistic Society/Union' has opened to me the path of taking ownership of my life. And by that also getting out of the FOG regarding religious abuse I have suffered.
But while it's been great to join the Humanists, it's not a place to discuss the abuse I've suffered.
This site might be able to provide space for that. But I'll want to ask first.
And I'll want to know if this 'need' is shared by others.
So others: if you consider this being a valuable contribution to explore such sources of your cPTSD, please let
me us know
here. in the thread the Site Manager (Kizzie) started. (for the link, see Kizzie's post below.)
(or via PM)
It can be a very sensitive issue and as such I appreciate you asking the community and Mod Team DU ( :thumbup:).
My own feeling is that as long as those posting are aware of the difference between sharing their point of view and trying to convert someone to theirs, any respectful considered discussion of religion or philosophy such as humanism is fine. However, I will see what the other Mods think and in the meantime we would appreciate any feedback from members on this topic.
The only thing I would ask is that we don't explore this issue here given it will derail arpy's thread about traumatizing N's. I have posed the question here in a new thread http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=2356.msg15014#msg15014 and would appreciate if you would reply there. Tks!
Thanks Kizzie.
If any wish for such a thread is expressed to here, or to me or you mods via PM, I'd like to clarify that the purpose, the usefulness of such a thread in relation to cPTSD would be to talk about abuse suffered in a religious context, and not about the religion per se.
I'm afraid that in any religion abuse occurs, and certainly also among those who consider themselves not religious, so I'd wish it not to be a thread on religion as such.
The line between the two will obviously be thin. The two will be 'enmeshed', is I think the appropriate term considering this issue.
Thanks for considering, and leaving the issue open for at least the possibility of such a thread, if a wish/need of it will surface. :thumbup:
This is a very good piece. I recently worked for a traumatising narcissist, he is a neuro-surgeon.
He was always de-railing any scheme that wasn't his idea and blaming everybody but him self for organisational problems. The worst part was that he felt, and often verbalised that he was paying for all the ancillary staff out of his own pocket, who were lazy ungrateful and were wasting his money. At the same time he would pay minimal salaries and a few times staff have come to me telling me that he refused to pay them for their work.
The medical clinic made $4 million profit in its first year, after paying for is start up costs, including an MRI and a lab. Income is around $1 million a month, the three directors take home $70,000 per month each, yet he was always saying that the business was on the verge of collapse and we must cut costs.
Westerners would only last a few weeks or months but Asians, who saw the salary as being 2-3 times more than they could earn back home would grin and put up with it. This is the problem when your boss is a narcissist, people often see them as being successful high achievers and give them a lot of credibility and when people need the job and the money walking away isn't an option.
I totally agree that narcissistic people are also victims and we can't always hold it against them. Although if you reach such a high level in society a bit of emotional intelligence world be expected. I do think that when people are giving the narcissist the recognition he craves it is difficult for him to see his faults, after all he is successful.
Society rewards pathological personalities when they are wealthy, whereas for the rest of us we struggle and because we make little progress in the world ask ourselves all the painful questions about how our lives are such a struggle.
QuoteAlthough if you reach such a high level in society a bit of emotional intelligence world be expected. I do think that when people are giving the narcissist the recognition he craves it is difficult for him to see his faults, after all he is successful.
i absolutely agree, steamy. sadly, it's 'success' and not emotional intelligence that is valued, which is why psychopathological personalities do so well in business, politics, religion etc. they are good at gaining and using power over others.
and it seems to me that it is the whole relational 'system', which these people are so adept at creating and maintaining around themselves, precludes any possibility of serious, effective challenge to their hegemony. that's how they have organised it, and that's how they manipulate and bully for it to remain. how a challenge could be successful in such a case is something to ponder.
Quote from: steamy on October 06, 2015, 10:31:48 AM
I do think that when people are giving the narcissist the recognition he craves it is difficult for him to see his faults, after all he is successful. Society rewards pathological personalities when they are wealthy, whereas for the rest of us we struggle and because we make little progress in the world ask ourselves all the painful questions about how our lives are such a struggle.
I was thinking of my FOO when I read this and it very much applies. My NPD B was the Golden Child and could do no wrong and he believes that to this day, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. I used to wonder how that could be until I learned about PDs at OOTF. The same PD that protects him from feeling past trauma and much of anything real or authentic in the present, stops him from feeling what he needs to to be truly, fully human.
He was successful in sports and his career and there was never any challenge to his behaviour, except from me (the Scapegoat) and that just made me look bad of course. Even when his marriage failed he managed to come out smelling like a rose (i.e., it was all his ex-wife's fault). Amazing!
Although I wish I did not have to contend with CPTSD, I am grateful I did not develop a PD because I see him nowadays as an empty shell living a superficial life. I am recovering and letting my real self rise to the surface and connect with life and others and I'm good with that.
What I'm not good with is the damage NPDs cause - widespread like Bernie Madoff or more local like my B, it all adds up to trauma that cycles through the generations. By being here at OOTS I think/hope we are contributing to blowing away the fog those with PDs cloak themselves. We are speaking up and raising awareness among ourselves and hopefully in those around us. Maybe as a result fewer people will smile when the NPD neurosurgeon behaves abominably. And
that is a contribution to be proud of imo. :yes:
What a concise description of "cultism". So much of it resonated for me. Our family was secondary to the "cult" of dog shows. I can use the "DOG SHOW" metaphor in my creative writing to great effect. Food for thought. Thank you.