During this CPTSD experience I have learned so much, more than I wanted to know really. One term is dissociation, finally something to call those periods of checking out. Trying to control this though is very hard and so energy consuming, that it makes so not worth the exposure to other people and places. Again the isolation seems to fit better. Let the dissociation do it's thing. Though there are times when this doesn't work out. Like trying to read something, especially if it's a stressful read to begin with. Staying on task with getting things done around the house. I only want to communicate with people via the computer, something I have some control over.
My question is dissociation a phase? Something that will naturally go away? Because I really don't have the energy for the grounding process. Especially in T sessions. Between the stress of giving the right answers and trying not to drift off it is totally exhausting.
Hi Trace,
For me, disassociation is a defense mechanism that I use to avoid feeling or emotion. It is a skill that I developed as a child to cope day to day so I would not feel anger or hate towards my abusers. But, it also kept me from being able to feel value, worth, or love. There is only one person I allow to touch me, my husband, and sometimes I even back away from a hug from him. But, I tense up if anyone else wants to touch me. So, disassociation is one of the big issues for me in counseling because I can't seem to figure out how to get my brain to stop using it as a defense mechanism. It is all I have ever known. I literally stand outside myself and talk about myself and too myself in the third person so that I can handle any feeling or emotion objectively. I also use music to escape reality and disassociate with fantasy or ideas of how I want things to be or think is what others actually experience. So, not a phase in my case, it is a disorder that I have not figured out how to deal with yet.
I will offer one piece of advice. I did the same initially in therapy, I stressed out because I was trying to give the right answers, tell them what they wanted to hear. It was a mistake. There should not be any stress related to answering the questions or explaining your thoughts or feelings to your T. They can't help you unless you are honest with them. It is important to be yourself and answer with what you are really thinking and feeling. There is no right or wrong. Your experiences are real and valid and so is everything else that comes with it. We own our thoughts and experiences and the T can really only help us if we answer with the first thing that comes to your mind. Took me awhile to figure this out and my IC still beats me up but the relationship with the T is less stressful as a result. The T trusts what I tell him more and I am feeling less judged in each session. Hope this helps. :bigwink: DM
Thanks for the response DM. I'm not sure when I started dissociating, very well could have been as a child, but until recently it hasn't been an issue to be concerned with. Maybe it's more intense now, or intrusive in my life. I answer the T honestly, just the words are carefully put together.
A T is someone we pay to listen to us and help us. Kind of like the car mechanic. So there is a small level of trust with this person, but not much. She's doing a job we are paying them to do. There was this article on 10 Secrets Your Therapist Won't Tell You and it pretty much confirmed, your T is not your friend. I was reading on what the T needed to know from a client and came across this and other articles. I think what most clients think of their T, is very much opposite of what the T thinks of the client, in most cases.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Hi Daisymay
Once again, I completely relate to you.
I think disassociation is a defence mechanism for everyone....?
Your words struck truth with me and helped me to understand why i disassociated.
I felt a LOT of anger towards my mum, to the point where i fantasised about shouting at her, pushing her out of the house, killing her, and i often wished she was dead.
I must of put that anger somewhere, in order to not explode and in order to not feel anger all the live long day.
What also struck me, is when you say that it obstructs your ability to feel worthy, and to feel love for others, and to accept love from them.
I started to feel very angry when being touched by my 7 year long partner, and i have never been interested in sex.
I am not present when we hug, i feel *nothing*, and if i do feel anything, when we spend time together, i feel deeply sad.
I can not be present with my dad either, never been able to, as i now i would cry.
At christmas, he was innapropiate when he hugged me, very drunk, and in thinking about this grief i have for him even though he is alive, i thought i would crumble and cry a lot if that hug happened that i haven't had since i was little.
I didn't however, when it happened. I was smothered, - i went as hard as a stone, emotional completely gone, and a second time, i want out the room to make a drink, had to get out as i felt sad, and he tears i felt coming completely went away, vanished into thin air, and i felt nothing.
Hugging my partner makes me feel vulnerable too.
I do worry i have no empathy, am narcissistic, as i am numb most of the time.
im not sure where i go when we hug, and we don't have sex anymore...hope this isn't too much information, but i feel nothing when we do, and I'm plagued with guilt.
I also use music to disassociate , internet, TV.
I have different parts in my head as far as i know...and talk to myself in second person, being the parent instead of myself.
Daisymay, do you now the name of your disorder?
Dissociation and trust (whatever that is).
My whole life has turned into a dissociative carnival, funny if it weren't so sad. All I care about anymore is being alone with my books, music, cat, cabin, and woods. I suppose this makes me sound like a withdrawn hermit, but if so, I'm a pretty well-read sociable one, according to many who've known me and actually admire my "perfect" peaceful life.
But what always happens just happened again, and I'm wondering why I even bother trusting people anymore. A huge trust event of recent days has thrown me back into my "fine, I'm very good at this isolation bit" way of being. This has always been my only reliable safety net, and I don't want to try the trust game again just to get burned and used. It's just repetitive and I'm okay without it. Except I wouldn't be writing about it if it was that crystal clear, would I?
Some would call this a retreat. But, as Trace says, I'm too tired dealing with it anymore. I just feel so sad when my trust in people has been shattered, again by the same old narcissistic sorts who couldn't care less about what they've done anyway. I may just be at the point of not trying anymore, and perhaps my hard work at self-acceptance need go no further.
I could be a hermit as well. Most people I keep at arms length. Professional people who want your trust and honesty, well that should work both ways. I accept myself, I wish others would accept who I am now. Instead of looking at me with sad, disapproving eyes, understand this is me now and love me for that.
I think we all dissociate to a degree, imagination! But when the dissociation is where it's used as an escape from pain or interferes with life it may be time to work on it or learn to work with it. I think I'm at the work with phase. Hoping it will become less of a issue in my life in time.
Hi Indigochild,
I drove my counselor crazy at first trying to get him to name my disorder. The most I ever got out of him was that I might be a little bit PTSD. But he will not allow me to see it as having a disorder. I was determined to get a name for it but then I realized that a diagnosis of a disorder would just make me feel like even more of a misfit and that it was my fault because I have something wrong with me. Basically, I have experienced things in my life that have effected me but it does not make me disordered. I can change it, I just have to find the will and strength to do it. The mechanisms I used got me this far in life, but they do not work anymore. I want, need, something different and desperately want to make changes so I can live a happier fuller life. But to do this means that I will probably have to change some of the people in my life, minimal contact or none, and I have a lot of issues with guilt and shame that are holding me back from making these choices.
I'm sure there are other threads about the T relationship, but Trace and DaisyMae brought it up here, which tweaked a thought I've had over years of being with various T's.
Mainly, I've noticed that the T's who were most helpful were the ones who hadn't spent their entire professional lives as T's, at least getting out of their own closed fraternity for a bit of fresh air. Seeing what the world their clients was really like first-hand, instead of solely relying on their own packaged education or pet projects as the basis on which to interact.
Just one example--I had a T who spent almost the entire time we had together trying to fit my issues into her master's thesis concerning life scripts. Pages and charts from it were always at hand, ready for referral, as she was convinced it was THE way. It was sorta interesting, at times, but mostly it resembled trying to fit round pegs into square holes or vice-versa. I as the client was left feeling like I was just evidence to insert into a pre-ordained theory, which even if true, as she was intent on proving, didn't exactly make me feel better; just used. It was nuts.
So I guess what I'm saying is, when scouting out potential T's, it might be important to determine if they've been out of their ivory towers long enough to encounter life outside the box.
I agree that experience is the best teacher. I have also found that most T's have been in therapy themselves, which is good so they will have a little bit of a perspective of what it's like on the other side. But it makes you wonder how focused they are on you or are they busy doing some type of comparison to their experience. Anyway, I think when looking for a counselor you should find one with the most experience already under their belt, in the area that you need attention in. Sometimes though that is hard unless you live in some major city and have a large pool of T's to fish from. Also, think people need to educate themselves as much as they can about their condition so they will be aware of what's happening , what could happen, why it's happening, or to have questions for the T that really pertain to your issues. For me though, it's been hard to absorb what I'm reading. At first I was consumed about learning about CPTSD. Mainly because I wanted to see if it was something I could fix myself without having a T involved. Maybe the information is way over my head, not sure why I can't retain this information. Maybe it's denial.....I really don't know. But what I do know is that I am very disappointed that this is lasting this long. Kind of rambling here, hope this made some sense.
I agree completely. Experience is the best teacher. Also, understanding that it is okay to make mistakes because we learn the most from them. This is not how I was raised as a child. You were supposed to be perfect. However, it didn't matter how hard you tried, nothing was ever perfect enough. If I lost or scored poorly, I was in trouble. If I won or scored well, I could have done better or was in trouble for being so competitive. I would be told my mom to Just do the best you can. I learned quickly that was a trap. Doing the best you could meant that you got a perfect grade with + and did extra credit with a nice added note from the teacher. Then when I actually achieved this, I would get little reaction at all. It was made clear that was the expectation, you didn't deserve recognition for it.
I eventually gave up on trying to please my parents and started trying to please everyone else so they would like me. Sorry, got off track for a moment.... I am not sure that my current counselor has much personal real life experience to use to relate. However, he has been a school social worker and counselor for many years and he grew up with at least one parent that was a social worker too. So, his experience seems to be in what he has learned working with others.
But, my experience has been the same as Trace's in that I feel that many times that I get in over my head in the research and am in denial. I was first consumed with learning about narcissists and what was wrong with the people around me, then it was codependency, and then ended up at CPTSD and Childhood Trauma. Think I thought I would be able to work through it on my own and be able to drop the counselor quickly as well. Not.... The research itself triggers me and I take in more than I can absorb. And I am disappointed that I have not worked through this yet and everything isn't back to normal. But, I know that there really is no "normal" and things can't go back to the way they were. And, I blame myself for not being able to "fix" myself and move on....
I have been fortunate to have had 2 good counselors. However, the second therapist I went to see was just as Trace described. I even expressed that I didn't really feel like I could trust someone that I paid to talk to me to her. She reassured me that was not the case, it was her mission to help me and to be able to trust her completely. However, she knew how hypervigilant I was and my need to write and email to work through anxiety and EF's. She was very emphatic and validating in our sessions and she would tell me how much she liked me and would even try to hug me. But, when I made the switch to start seeing her full time, the last thing she asked before I left the session was "Oh, and I hope you do not send me a lot of emails because I am so busy and I don't want you to be hurt if I don't read them. She never ran over on her sessions, you paid for 50 minutes, and that is what you got - 50 minutes. It was a business for her, which I do understand. She also had limited availability because she was involved in so many other things. She was good at what she did but it was a job.
The experience with the second T, helped me to realize that the first T I had seen for several months did really care and was someone that I could trust. He is very professional and works within the ethics required of a T. But, he does not judge, he puts up with my writing, he has had me call when I am having a very tough time to help me see that the whole world isn't crashing down around me, and he doesn't worry about the sessions running over time. I have tried to pay him more because I feel guilty for the times that he has spent an extra 15 to 30 minutes working with me. He is not my friend, I understand that. It is not ethical in the professional sense of being a counselor. However, he does care and is in his field because he wants to help people. Maybe I am being naïve and I hope that I do not end up disappointed. But I have found in my life, unfortunately, that it is better to put trust in strangers versus family or the people that tell you they are your friends. I have yet to be hurt by a stranger. I have had to put trust in strangers over the last few years just to survive. It has always been my family and friends that have abused me or used me. But, I do feel lucky after reading many of the posts on this site because it does appear to be rare to find T's that you can trust are out for your best interest as much or more than for their own livelihood.
I hope that we all find what we are looking for and find happiness and joy in being who we are and able to live the lives we all deserve. :bighug:
My first T also said it would be okay to email her and we would discuss the notes during a session then she changed that to she didn't have time to read the emails. Once I stopped emailing my concerns we really had nothing to talk about, she didn't know where to go with it so she said I was probably not ready for therapy. I wasn't ready? Really? How about you didn't know how to handle your job? Anyway, I think that's a norm for T's not wanting email contact. I too write in journal things I probably would say f2f to a T. So the journal, which was usually 2-3 pages, because I edited some of it out. I think too they feel like they are providing a service they can't bill for.
So sounds like your new T is very open to truly helping you. Congrats on finding him.
It's good we have a place to go in between sessions to vent. My T said I could call her in an emergency...LOL...like that would happen.
My T did something kind of surprising though. I had the Pete Walker book with me and showed it to her. Told how so many have thought his insights have been right on point. I just glanced through the book when I got it and he did seem to really know what we are dealing with. So she asked if she could read it. Of course I said sure, thinking the more she knows about this the better she will be able to help me and others. Interested in seeing what she thought about it. have to respect someone who is willing to learn on their own to help you.
Hi Daisymae-
finally spelt your name right
Humm...a little bit ptsd?? Thats crazy. Its obvious to me that you most likely do have complex ptsd from you past.
I think thats generally the case for therapists not wanting to say too much.
That sucks, especially if you feel you can handle it, but yes, maybe not.
I agree with you on that, it does not make you disordered. I hate the world disordered or mentally ill, maybe not functioning as best you could due to abuse etc. would fit it better.
These things are all normal reactions to trauma, even *normal* not mentally ill people would have reacted that way had the same thing happened to them.
Before it happened to us, we were just like the rest of the world i suppose.
I asked my T if she would tell me what she thinks is wrong with me and what she thinks happened. She told me childhood trauma, extreme emotional abuse- but she said that it would not make sense to tell me now as i wouldnt believe it or understand it.
She wants me to come to those conclusions myself.
I hope you are able to make these changes and that you get past the guilt and the shame.
I see the world as being a horrible place as well as the people in it, and i guess lack of feelings make me not care about not seeing others, especially when i feel they are triggering.
Since my last "big" dissociative event I've been dissecting it and trying to find out more about it. It seems that when dissociating , for me, a lot of push a pull going on in my head, that there's seems to be an imbalance that keeps me there. So maybe finding that balance will keep me from going there. Having these events around the T has brought up different issues than having them alone. Having them alone they just ran their course, I was usually at home in a safe environment without interruption. So when the T tries to guide me back, sometimes my head fights that, but why? When she was trying a grounding exercise before I left the office, we went through the motions though it didn't help, other than make me a little angry, again....why? Any thoughts on this?
Is dissociation really that bad? I don't notice it having a really negative impact, I just forget conversations and have a hard time paying attention or remembering some things. This seems like an okay trade off for not feeling or remembering stressful situations. Usually ppl just think you're a little scatterbrained or forgetful. I'd rather be called a space cadet than remember things that cause me flashbacks and are emotionally crippling. Why does it have a negative connotation? Some ppl just see it as daydreaming and a normal thing because everyone does it a little bit.
Is there something that happens that I don't know about, if it gets worse or you induldge in it? I feel like its a healthy coping mechanism to simply forget bad things, whats wrong with it that people want to treat "dissociation" and would be concerned about that of all things?
I think I responded to this thread before saying something like. "I didn't think it was that big of a deal to dissociate" after talking with my T about it. I guess her calmness made me realize, my problem was more with like, concentration while driving and such, and not so much dissociating.
I feel like I actually have a hard time recognizing when I am disassociating, and sometimes it really isn't disassociating, and it is day dreaming, which i believe we could be more apt to experiencing indefinitely. But there is a difference. I disassociated a lot as a child to protect myself from traumatic events as a defense mechanism. And I disassociate as an adult, sometimes, when my brain is trying to face the trauma, but I am to scared to fall back into that state of mind.
For anyone who may be freaked out a bit by disassociation, I had a really bad like hour long episode of releasing, crying, screaming, and after, I realized I went into an intense EF of being small and hurt, and I dissociated, and I KNEW it. And it was really really scary. It was like, I couldn't understand that I was on the ground.
BUT there have been times where i have disassociated and it hasn't been as scary...It was actually peaceful, and like I had outer body experiences that I was okay with.
It Just depends on what you are dealing with at the time I suppose. I can see how it can be very scary though. I called a crisis line that night. The lady told me to take my anxiety medication, take a shower, and have my boyfriend rub my shoulders to help me calm.
What I learned from that experience, is to stay ahead of my anxiety, and not let it get so bad to where I am disassociating. So if I feel some intense stuff coming up, but i have work or school or something I need to stay on top of, I gotta take my medications, or if I am home, I gotta take a bath or shower to stay calm, self sooth. Staying ahead of my anxiety to prevent disassociation is what I learned.
But everyone is different. I dunno. Just my 2 cents.
Bluebird, all dissociation is not bad depends on where you are and what you are doing. Sometimes the intensity of the event will be stronger and harder to get back from. I want to stop dissociating because of the time expense. My time during the event and then afterwards I feel so drained that I don't want to do anything else. Plus I don't like that foggy not in control feeling, especially when driving, or having one while around other people, it causes great concern for them and I don't want that type of attention.
Also I don't want to have them during a T session. I pay good money to go sit and talk with her, I don't want to daydream that time away. Now at home it not as big of deal, it's usually light and short lived. But if I had been at work and experienced this ...that would be bad.
Hi KayFly that's what I'm working on now, trying to stay ahead of the anxiety and ward off the dissociation. Keep you on your toes trying to do that. It's the hardest while in a T session. I have a small rock that is special to me. I'm going to start taking that with me to a T session to try to stay grounded. I've found that physical grounding works better than a verbal or emotional grounding.
Hey Trace. :wave:
Glad you are moving forward and finding what helps. A rock is a great idea. I love when I come across a beautiful stone, or shell on the beach. I have a few grounding things like that. :yes:
Best,
K
Kayfly the rocks, I took more than one, were actually good. I held them and moved them around in my hands constantly while talking to the T, no dissociation events this day. That is good. Glad to have found something, this simple, that helps with that. I hope it continues and that it wasn't just a fluke. Anything is worth a try, right?
That's Awesome Trace...
The littlest things can be so therapeutically valuable :)
Indeed, it's so rare to find something positive in this process, have to at least smile you find something like this.
That's such a simple and yet elegant idea Trace, your fingers are full of nerves so it would be a really tactile way of grounding yourself.
Once a T gave me a teddy bear to hold while I was recounting something particularly painful and while I felt a little silly, I remember how wonderful his fuzzy fur felt and how soft he was so it kept me in the moment and certainly made my IC feel safer.
i don't really understand what dissociating is. it seems like this big complicated confusing concept that i can't properly grasp. i think i do, but then it slides away.
My T has said i do it, and i guess having someone living in my head with me for years is what she means, and the fact that she very rightly says i don't know how to differentiate my feelings, they all end up feeling like fear or anger... so i must be getting something wrong somewhere.
thing is, i don't know any other way to be. and since i became a hermit crab, this last little while, and totally hid myself away, i understand even less. becos to hide feels at least a bit more comfortable and safe, and as long as no one comes near me i cld stay like this forever.. except, and this is happening more and more lately, when the screaming sobbing woman in my head gets out and i am in danger of losing control of her. then i know i need to do something about it, big time.
what am i not getting? is it that i don't know what it's like to not dissociate? or that i'm actually not doing it?
i don't have any template to work from, no frame of reference. if my T is correct about me perhaps i should be asking what does it mean to not dissociate? it's all so unclear. has any one got any ideas that could help me understand, please? are there any resources at the kind of 'For Dummies' level that i could get hold of?
Arpy1,
Dissociation was first described to me as detachment from oneself. So to dissociate is to separate one part of the self from another and to distance oneself from at least one of the parts.
But how do you know you're dissociating? One way (I was told) is by identifying behaviors, everything from daydreaming to use of substances that accomplish some sort of detachment. If you're doing it, you have it.
I think one problem, for people with CPTSD, is that dissociation is almost a way of life. It's the only way to continue on. To recognize the totality of abuse is otherwise overwhelming.
Another problem is that "official" definitions of dissociation are rather abstract and encompass responses like dissociative identity disorder (DID), which can involve multiple personalities and long periods of amnesia. In other words, the spectrum is so wide, that it's hard to know what qualifies.
I sometimes think of dissociation as a kind of fragmentation. When in fragments, I can attend to only some of the pieces at any given time, so I don't "associate" with all of them. I suppose then the goal is integration, putting the pieces back together.
Kizzie that was such a sweet gesture for the T to give you the bear. I'm sure that was comforting. The rocks I use came from a special place in the Inter Coastal Waterway (ICW) there's this island that has all the smooth pebbles of different shapes and colors. They look like gemstones in the water. I love that place. So they work for me.
Arpy, I think dissociation is a time out from what's going on in your head, or at least that is how it feels to me. A protection from overload of thoughts. I don't know I'm dissociating until I am well into it, then it seems to be comfortable there, the grounding of having something in my hands (like my rocks) helps me come back. When I'm not dissociating thoughts are clearer, faster, more on edge. I too have become a hermit of sorts. But the best thing for you to do is talk to your T about this. I don't think there's a template for this, that would fit everyone
do you know, that's probably the clearest explanation i have ever been given. thank you so much for taking the time to do that.
i guess, with the ssw sitting in my head (i still can't believe i can talk about her here, but nobody seems to mind) i have to agree i have separated part of me out from the rest of me. that's good, isn't it, to admit to her and talk about her? a start, perhaps?
behaviours? i guess i'm the using veg-out things type; like tv, computer games, reading escapist books, eating, alcohol... anything so i don't have to think or feel for a while. and i suppose, really, being a hermit is a not-normal behaviour, isn't it?
way of life? Exactly, right on the button. the times when i do let myself recognize even bits of the reality, it still shocks me so much that they really did do that to me!?! it is overwhelming, you're right. that bit never seems to get better with time.
integration... i don't really know how that would feel. but maybe i have enough tobe going on with.
thank you again, stillhere. appreciate it very much :thumbup:
just caught your post too, Trace, thank you. i really relate to the time out idea. and definitely protecting (or trying to) from overload. maybe i will start to notice myself more now. thanks again :hug:
Arpy1, I think you just identified a big part of the problem: simultaneously thinking they really did that to me and then again thinking something like, "it might have been normal" or "maybe it wasn't so bad." Perhaps until those two versions merge, integration can't happen?
Whenever I see or read accounts of child abuse, I simultaneously think, "So that's child abuse?" and "How dreadful for that child." One part of my brain is still identifying the "reality" of it. The other can empathize. So maybe merging those two reactions would be integration?