My very enabling dad who I have had several long conversations with about why I am no contact with my NM... first of all, never texts me or calls yet when I text or call he says things like "do you even remember what I sound like?" And I miss you and want to talk to you more often! But yet he never calls or text me or tries to have an actual relationship.
So today, not that big of a surprise after a long period of silence, I get a text saying he hopes I am having a great Mother's Day with my mom. It's so ridiculous and out there and on the nose that on one hand, I see it for what it is. On the other hand, I didn't know he was still in denial about that. at least if he doesn't talk about it he still knows what the deal is right? I told him at great length and fine detail. Or he's not in denial, just trying to paint me a bad person for not being in contact with her.
I remember as I was talking to him about it before his face looking in shock and light deer in the headlights. I didn't realize that by telling him about my mom I would actually be pointing out to him all the things he missed. He needed to hear that anyway, so that was fine. Now he's majorly gaslighting me .
Should I respond to that at all? Probably not. Should I ask him Why do you say that? I don't really know where the conversation go if he didn't listen to me and acknowledge before. It hurts that he doesn't even think about how hard Mother's Day are for me or how this whole situation is for me. He is way more concerned about how his ex-wife feels. I've been going through a hard time with it lately, lots of SI worse than ever. And I'm just starting to do better.
He is going to be here during the period of my sister's wedding at the end of the month and expect to see me otherwise I would just ignore or maybe go NC with him right now too. Honestly, I hope I catch the flu right before the wedding. Or Covid yeah Covid.
Wow, Phoebes, that is so triggering and unbelievable that he would still try to play you like that! I'm so sorry to hear that happened. Wish I had some sage advice but I'm honestly totally blown away.
I, for one, wouldn't wish illness on you for the upcoming wedding. I guess spring seasons are just rough, with parental days and weddings. It sounds like you're considering going no-contact with him, which might be your only move at this point -- for your own sanity! Have you learned any coping mechanisms to help you prepare for the triggers that might rear up around the wedding?
It sounds like you really see things and him for what they are. That's so huge. Bravo!
-Cascade
I'm a sacracstic *** so I'd probably write back "what mom? You mean the one who we talked about being abusive? Nope, not celebrating with that one. Got another mom for me I should know about?"
Or softer: "Dad we talked about my relationship with mom and how harmful it was, remember? Mothers Day is pretty difficult for me and causes a lot of grief and it really hurts that you would ignore that. I wish I had a mom that I could spend the day celebrating with, but I don't. It would help if you would acknowledge the difficult truth here."
I'm sorry he sent that. He is either guilt tripping you or really wants to pretend everything is fine.
Hi Phoebes,
I'm sorry you had to get that text, that's crap. I think you're right that's it's so on the nose and he's not choosing to see what's in front of his face even after you told him. I hope you're able to have some distance and see the situation for what it is though I empathsize with how hard it is and how much it just sucks to go through it. But it's a testament I think to all the work you're doing that you can see the dynamic for what it is and that he's not empathisizing with you at all. I hope you can be there for you in a way that they weren't.
I was reading another post recently about what are thee benefits of growing up as a scapegoat in the family, and someone commented how they were able to leave and how much better they're doing now (not that you're a scapegoat). I just felt like for me, it can be so hard to see that yes, I actually am doing better now than I was when I was with my family, and as much as child consciousness me yearns for that connection and protection, adult consciousness me can see that they would've never given it to me no matter what I said. But those are my experiences.
Sending you support and, from me, I'm not a fan of mother's day
dolly
All of your support and feedback has been invaluable to me this MD. It seems like last year I got through it the most easily in years but this year was harder.
Cascade, I really appreciate the validation. It's always a shocker at first when my dad does this stuff. You helped me come back down to earth. I have an easier time of intellectualizing these things but the nervous system is still sensitive for sure. I did observe though that it settled down much quicker than in the past, and wasn't triggered as bad as before. Yay me! lol
Quote from: Cascade on May 12, 2024, 10:23:23 PMHave you learned any coping mechanisms to help you prepare for the triggers that might rear up around the wedding?
I imagine grey rock will be in full effect. I'll be around all of the people who I went NC from, who think I'm bad for this, and who covertly take their side. There will be friends there too, so I imagine spending any chatty time with them. I imagine I will be cordial to the abusers but distant, stay as short of time as possible and skedaddle. Sad way to anticipate your sisters wedding.
Im sarcastic too, Armee. lol. Oddly, I learned a long time ago that sarcasm does not compute with my parents. I thought of something like that, too.
Quote from: Armee on May 12, 2024, 11:39:35 PM"Dad we talked about my relationship with mom and how harmful it was, remember? Mother's Day is pretty difficult for me and causes a lot of grief and it really hurts that you would ignore that. I wish I had a mom that I could spend the day celebrating with, but I don't. It would help if you would acknowledge the difficult truth here."
I'm sorry he sent that. He is either guilt tripping you or really wants to pretend everything is fine.
That is such eloquent words that would make perfect sense to send. I think I will. I will change it up just a bit so I'm not using your exact words but it is perfect. I know he will gloss over it and say something religious and dismissive in response but that is his problem. I think he is BOTH guilt tripping and pretending everything is fine, his two favorite past times. Otherwise he might have to look at his own situation. Oh the horror. The other thing with him is he wants me to think of abusive wife #2 fondly and as a "mom." Cringe to the max.
Thank you for the empathy, Dolly! I am most definitely the scapegoat and do gear a lot of healing around that vantage point. Jay Reid and Rebecca mandeville are two I find helpful.
Quote from: dollyvee on May 13, 2024, 08:19:41 AMI was reading another post recently about what are thee benefits of growing up as a scapegoat in the family, and someone commented how they were able to leave and how much better they're doing now (not that you're a scapegoat). I just felt like for me, it can be so hard to see that yes, I actually am doing better now than I was when I was with my family, and as much as child consciousness me yearns for that connection and protection, adult consciousness me can see that they would've never given it to me no matter what I said.
Well said. I've been NC for 9 years now (from NM) and VLC from dad for many years, and still struggle every day. I envy those who say after a couple of years they are thriving and happier than ever. I thought that would be me, honestly.
Some days are better but it is always on my mind. Most of the time just trying to be gentle with myself and remind myself that I am strong, that as a child and young adult I was especially strong and didn't even know it, and that going back would lead to more of the same. I get deeply sad, often. I've tried pursuing dreams, hobbies, fitness, being more authentic..that has led me to basically cut ties with many friends I once had due to now seeing the toxic draining dynamic. But that's another story.
I know I just have to get through this phase, until the next one. It seems it will never end. This is just how "this life" is.
I love and appreciate you all here.
Phoebes
Oh wow geez that's even worse...you've been no contact for NINE YEARS from her and he sent that? I think I was maybe assuming it was still a pretty new concept to him. Goodness. That is an ungodly amount of denial and gaslighting from him in that case. Geez. And gross...with the situation with his current wife you definitely wouldn't want to make my sarcastic quip about a new mom.
:doh: :doh: :doh:
Yeah, the more I think about it and what to write, the more useless it seems. Obviously he doesn't get it. I am feeling more angry about it now. It begs the question how did I even survive childhood? And how did I empathize with these people for 46 years not even realizing it wasn't my fault? I know, but wow. Just insane.
Maybe just a short "really dad????" Let him know you see his BS. Then whatever you want to do with that relationship go ahead and do it. My sister uses this phrase a lot...it's not my style but I tend to give people more benefit of the doubt than is deserved..."when people show you who they are the first time, believe them"
Thanks Armee. I do want to say something. It feels so bamboozling. It took me well into NC with my mom to realize he was also suspect. It's confusing because he is a gentle man, one who every thinks is so wonderful, great musician and artist, funny and attractive. So many of my friends over the years, when they meet him, tell me I am soooo lucky to have a dad like that, and I thought so too. I thought he was the good parent.
I went through a lot of grief over this a couple of years ago and came out the other end pretty detached. But it still gets me sometimes, very deeply. He was there and didn't protect. He was fun and talented but didn't spend time with me, teach me anything or include me. I love music and art, too. Why didn't my musician artist dad teach me or validate me? Not a single picture on the fridge my whole childhood. His pristine paintings covered the walls.
I'm trying to have compassion for the last parent I speak to, but when I remember certain things, and when he does this type of thing (by far not the first of this nature), it wrecks me, honestly.
Very understandable to feel wrecked by this dynamic and loss
Quote from: Phoebes on May 13, 2024, 10:39:42 PMI went through a lot of grief over this a couple of years ago and came out the other end pretty detached. But it still gets me sometimes, very deeply. He was there and didn't protect. He was fun and talented but didn't spend time with me, teach me anything or include me. I love music and art, too. Why didn't my musician artist dad teach me or validate me? Not a single picture on the fridge my whole childhood. His pristine paintings covered the walls.
I'm trying to have compassion for the last parent I speak to, but when I remember certain things, and when he does this type of thing (by far not the first of this nature), it wrecks me, honestly.
Hey Phoebes,
I really get what's going on for you rn. I couldn't understand how my gm (and gf) who told me they loved me could just let my m treat me the way she did and not stick up for me. Not to mention going behind my back and trying to get my m and I back together and inviting her to my university graduation when I specifically didn't. So, they told me they loved me and when I called them out on behaviour like this, it would be but why are you mad at me? Well, why can't you listen to me and yes, I do have that right to be heard. It's not all about you. For me, this was crazy-making, really. It defied reason. Like you, when I would tell other people about her behaviour, they would say well she just really loves you, and all that "it's family" garbage. What it sounds like with your dad to me, is that he had a public persona that everyone liked and served him well, which was good for him. It didn't matter what happened to you and it should have :hug:
What I'm realizing is that there is a part of me, very young, that formed an idealized image of them and this is what helped me survive. Not just an idealized image, but if I do x, then I will receive this love. Now, as an adult, I'm looking for this in other people, but am only just starting to realize that I'm not going to get it. This is a fantasy "love" that I needed to believe about my family and the person I thought I had to be (and what my life should look like) in order to survive. I think it comes from such a young age as well and that's what makes it so hard. I was in a fantasy bond since birth with people I thought loved me, but they were incapable of loving me. All this time I was just trying to do the "thing" whatever it was, so that I could finally be like other people and things would "work out" and I too would be thriving etc. While inside, I still feel it's hard for me to find things that I do well for example. To me, it just shows how strong their voices, and that bond, still is that I can't see the good things I'm doing, or what I've accomplished.
I did pick through a bit of the Jay Reid book and it's tricky because I think it applies to, or illustrates, very typical narcissistic behaviour ie very blatant putting down etc. For me, this applies to my m, but not my gm or gf. However, covert narcissism (gm) and moral narcissism (gf - but can't remember Dr. Ramani's exact term) is trickier to spot. So, I can see why it took so long to work this out, and how under the radar it is. What he did say that sort of clicked was the "narcissist is always above you." I'm only beginning to understand how this applies to my gm and gf and me. Both my gm and gf had lived through the war and came to Canada as refugees. There was always a sense that they had lived through so much, what
right did I have to assert myself or question them? I was here because of them, enjoying the life I had. How could I rebel and not do what they say ie simply be my own person? I felt guilty on some level every time I would try, and more so too because my gm seemed so selfless and "giving me everything." But every child has a right to exist and I didn't ask to be born and don't owe them anything (a friend of mine said this to me and it blew my mind, like it was dangerous. It shows me again, how deeply ingrained this stuff is). There's also a lot of cultural beliefs around "family" and how children should "behave" for me as well and as a kid I needed to do all this because it was "safe" and I would surive.
I don't want to make this about me, just pointing out my circumstances and why it was/is so hard to pick out. You're not alone, and it's not you, it's them. Really.
Sending you support and a hug if that's ok :hug:
dolly
Hi, Dolly,
Thank you for taking the time to share part of your story, I really do appreciate it and it helps to hear it too, because we do share some of the same experiences. It's always so bizarre to me how they all do and say the same things. The betrayal traumas are never ending.
That really sucks that your GM would invite your mom to your graduation like that. I can really relate to the narcissistic relatives having zero boundaries and also not thinking of us as adults with our own rights and decisions. Having respect for another human being is completely out of their understanding.
I've wondered too, why my relatives did not step in on both sides. My favorite aunt who witnessed a few of the very worst of my mother's episodes because my mother had to "prove her control" to her sister apparently. There were some horrible episodes in private and in front of my dad, but the worst were actually in front of this aunt who was actually my favorite aunt until she passed away. Why didn't she help? Because she agreed! Then there was the other side of the family who are just simply oblivious. They didn't protect me, still treat me like a child, and are just simply basic and surface level type of people. I have learned you do not mess with the fantasy "family is everything" narrative going on.
My grandparents were also poor with depression era type thinking. It's interesting what you said about challenging their authority and sense of their hardships as feeling dangerous. There was just no questioning them, including my grandfathers inappropriate behavior towards me. I was not allowed to say no because you do not say no to your elders. And when I did speak up, it took a lot of bravery, and my grandmother got right in my face and said if I ever said anything like that again, she would disown me. My parents did not ask me any further questions or protect me or cease to take me there, so I felt very crazy and undeserving of protection. After all, I had disrespected my elders who went through so much . Then, in the years to come, if anything came up about my go my dad would often say " you just don't understand him like I did." Yes that is the level of protection and gaslighting. Honestly, how I'm still in contact I have no idea. It's always been like this just insane amount of denial.
The other thing you said is yes if I just tried to be my own person, I was seen as rebelling and they doubled down on the control. Especially my narcissistic mother. We are talking about things like wanting to wear cut off shorts. Oh the horror. wanting to skateboard. what will people think? Wanting to learn how to play multiple instruments. How dare I disrupt the noise level in the home. One of my problems is I never rebelled at all or spoke up out of sheer terror. And now I am an older grown woman still feeling like I never got to do the things I wanted. I wasn't rebelling. I was prevented from being myself. There's a big difference. I'm sure you can relate.
Then when I was 25 and went back to school to live my dream, finally, my mother shows up at my doorstep and throws a tantrum and tells me "rebelling at (my) age is extremely unattractive". Every time she use the word rebel I was just bamboozled like what? How am I rebelling? I'm going back to college a second time. I so wish I knew then what I know now.
Anyway, yes, and here we are after years of learning and healing and making progress, my dad is still doing what he always did. I got up the nerve to talk to him in detail over several conversations a few years back, and nothing has changed. Obvious I expect something from a rock. I think to my parents I'm just a thing that was supposed to pop out and respect their every whim and have zero thoughts or needs.
I have not read Jays book but I like his videos. He touches on some experiences of the scapegoat that I have had, and how to heal them, that I have not heard from most others. I resonate with what his clients describe.
Anyhoo, sorry so long. I really appreciate you and all here.
That sucks.
You know, I sometimes think that nothing actually sinks in with these people. If they are told something that does not agree with their narrative they are quite capable of simply pretending it isn't so. Even if they have kicked up a fuss initially, somehow the whole thing just fades back into their own little world view. They just stick their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la". :stars:
It's so bizarre. And here I was twisting myself into a pretzel all these years trying to talk to them, figure out what to say, the right way to respond, everything. Then when you stop trying to engage, they think you're a horrible person or have ghosted them or just act like nothing happened and keep right on going. I realized a couple of longtime friends are like this, and I just can't even have the energy.
Quote from: Phoebes on May 14, 2024, 04:24:22 PMMy parents did not ask me any further questions or protect me or cease to take me there, so I felt very crazy and undeserving of protection. After all, I had disrespected my elders who went through so much . Then, in the years to come, if anything came up about my go my dad would often say " you just don't understand him like I did." Yes that is the level of protection and gaslighting. Honestly, how I'm still in contact I have no idea. It's always been like this just insane amount of denial.
I'm sorry you had to go through that and that your parents didn't protect you. I came across this book title called Scapegoating in Families: Intergenerational Patterns of Physical and Emotional Abuse by Vimala Pillari and was intrigued at how this pattern could play out generationally. Something else I read was that scapegoats are the secret keepers/cycle breakers in the family. I guess when you start to look at it in that context, it becomes less crazy making perhaps it's not all about me and what did I do wrong that they didn't love me etc. Not saying it excuses what happened in any way, and not really sure what the antidote to everything is. I guess it sort of sums up why there's a part of me that feels it "has to take everything on" because that was my role.
Quote from: Phoebes on May 14, 2024, 04:24:22 PMThe other thing you said is yes if I just tried to be my own person, I was seen as rebelling and they doubled down on the control. Especially my narcissistic mother. We are talking about things like wanting to wear cut off shorts. Oh the horror. wanting to skateboard. what will people think? Wanting to learn how to play multiple instruments. How dare I disrupt the noise level in the home. One of my problems is I never rebelled at all or spoke up out of sheer terror. And now I am an older grown woman still feeling like I never got to do the things I wanted. I wasn't rebelling. I was prevented from being myself. There's a big difference. I'm sure you can relate.
Rebelling is a really interesting word and it's also interesting how loaded words can be. I did feel like I was rebelling if I did anything, and to a certain extent I still align with skateboarders and the "counterculture." However, I also got straight A's and it wasn't like I was a bad person, or that skateboarders are "bad" people. I think because of the history of my family and what they went through, there were very real consequences for speaking out ie the Russian police visited my great grandfather after my grandmother left the country. She rebelled against her parents wishes and things like this happened, or it was an unsafe environment to rebel and you would disappear in the night kind of thing. Her family was persecuted for their heritage after WWI too. I guess being a rebel meant fighting for yourself, but under dangerous conditions. They still carried those ideas to me in childhood and was told things like, "you don't know the way the world works."
I don't blame you for trying to speak with your dad and have a connection, this is something we're born and wired to do. We need that support to survive as children. I kept going back to my family as well thinking they would understand, or looking for that understanding in romantic interests. It's a big, deep feeling when I realize that it's not going to come from them, but from me, and I'm only just beginning to recognize and understand that. You're not alone in that.
Sending you support,
dolly
I'm definitely going to check out that book, too. I often feel like the physical abuse aspect gets brushed aside in all of the information evolving out there, with lots to talk about emotional abuse is just as bad as physical abuse. It is absolutely. But it's not two separate things for me. And, the physical abuse came along with the verbal and emotional abuse as well. I would often get physically abused for things I didn't do or mind-boggling accusations. I would be getting verbally attacked while getting physically attacked. Now did this leave big bruises visible so that a police officer could observe that I was physically abused? Not usually. Are usually had red welts that went away within a few hours. This is never mentioned , physical abuse is usually described as having injuries or bruises or broken bones or cigarette burns. It's like saying I was never raped so I really molested. I never had a broken bone so was I really physically abused? Yes, absolutely it's just not something that I've seen much mention of so I'd like to read that book and see what it says.
Also also when I'm hashing the stuff out and watching videos reading books and learning. It is mostly emotional abuse and whether or not to forgive or try again or go no contact with the entire family because of all the gaslighting, etc. But then a lot of these videos and information say "they are not talking about if you were physically abused. " as to say, if you were physically abused, then definitely you should be no contact. No question about it and never speaking to any of these people again. It's all very confusing.
Sorry for the long rambles. It's really interesting. What you share about your grandparents viewpoint. Mine had some similar experiences, although we're not European, but I was often told I had no idea about the real world, and I didn't know what I was talking about and things like that. They definitely had depression era thinking, Were somewhat of hoarders and did not feel like they deserved anything in life. They both had an eighth grade education, although my grandfather was very intelligent and read medical books, had a wealth of knowledge from his ancestors about natural healing, Chinese and native American medicine, and was a natural musician. I didn't hate my grandparents. I just don't know why in so many years my mom could not have figured out how to do anything but be abusive. She always dropped seeds everywhere we went like I was ignorant or had some sort of issue or problem or birth defect. She painted a narrative about me so no one would believe me which seems worse to me than what her parents were. It seems psychopathic. Anyway sorry I'm starting to ramble.
Quote from: NarcKiddo on May 14, 2024, 05:16:45 PMYou know, I sometimes think that nothing actually sinks in with these people. If they are told something that does not agree with their narrative they are quite capable of simply pretending it isn't so. Even if they have kicked up a fuss initially, somehow the whole thing just fades back into their own little world view. They just stick their fingers in their ears and sing "la la la".
Exactly! And once we figure that out we don't twist ourselves like pretzels anymore because nothing works, except gray rock or no contact. They (N's) are well and truly broken.
I don't see them as being born evil per se, rather I see most of them as ending up hurting/manipulating/gaslighting/demeaning/etc., others because they suffered so much trauma it caused NPD. I don't excuse/forgive them, but it helps to understand why they are the way they are. For me it makes it all that much more important that every effort is made to ensure all children are loved and safe and nurtured. Idealistic I know but at least we can aspire to this.
Quote from: Phoebes on May 13, 2024, 10:39:42 PMI do want to say something.
I know this post of yours is from a few days ago and even though I've read further in this thread, I haven't picked up on whether you've said something or not. I have been reading this thread of yours plus responses for a few days...
Our cases aren't totally dissimilar I would say. In my experience it can be really hard not to say anything when you get this amount of denial and completely idiotic stuff said to you, but with the benefit of hindsight, I would tend not to say anything to FOO in response. I really understand wanting to but it seems not to get through to them anyway or if it does they don't care, it's like water of a duck's back and/or they use it as ammunition to get back at you later.
Or if you do decide to say something, be very clear in advance about why you want to say it and about what may happen. ime getting hurt again and again and again wasn't very helpful. What did help me was writing Recovery Letters on here, again and again and again. That helped direct the words and emotions and utter craziness at the FOO-in-my-head without making myself vulnerable to real present-day FOO. It took a lot of Recovery Letters but the pain and anger did subside after a few years. The FOO ping-pong I'd done for years was not particularly helpful because I stayed in reactive mode and because I simply could not win in my FOO. That's part of being family Scapegoat though as far as I understand it - you
can't win because FOO needs you in that role.
Quote from: Phoebes on May 13, 2024, 10:39:42 PMIt took me well into NC with my mom to realize he was also suspect. It's confusing because he is a gentle man, one who every thinks is so wonderful, great musician and artist, funny and attractive. So many of my friends over the years, when they meet him, tell me I am soooo lucky to have a dad like that, and I thought so too. I thought he was the good parent.
:yeahthat: (apart from the musician bit)
Apparently as children we need at least one 'good parent'. Two nasty, evil, bad ones is just too much for the child psyche. When I finally saw through this one as an adult in my late 30's/early 40's I suppose, the pain of it caused a massive re-traumatisation, dissociation and Horrendous FOO Event no. 1. I wouldn't wish that on anybody else. Anyway, I don't want to take over your whole thread here.
However you decide or already have decided and acted on, I'm sitting with you and wishing you strength and support. :hug:
P.S. I once read an opinion on our sister website OutOfTheFog that such FOO mbrs know exactly what they are doing, they just don't care.
Repeating that to myself helped.
Also keeping the Abusive Cycle in my head and the idea of those Flying Monkeys helped. Those terms are explained including a diagram for abusive cycle over on OutOfTheFog. Under Toolbox or similar, not necessarily on the forum.
Thanks so much for your response and for taking an interest in this..so far I've actually not responded and it's kind of faded in the background, and I feel like it's been too long.
The reason is whenever I'd think of or plan what to write I get that feeling like I have said things so many times and it falls on deaf ears. Maybe I shouldn't give him the satisfaction that I even gave it a thought.
He also texted me the night before Easter and said he hopes I'm be celebrating "resurrection day" tomorrow. He, and especially his wife, seem to have this thing of trying to police mine and my sisters relationships..he's always been the type to say "make sure and wish so and so happy birthday" and things like that. I've told him I can handle my own relationships thank you, and he keeps doing this stuff. Does he think it's cute? Clever? Functional? He also has made comments of doing things out of "fatherly duty." Does he think it's his duty to tell me how to be?
I didn't respond Easter or MD. I think I still think maybe he needs a reminder to knock it off, and I am going to see him in a couple of weeks. I'm sure there may be opportunity, because my NM will be there running the show at my sisters wedding and I'm sure he will try to act oblivious we have been NC for years.
On a side note, I seem to be accumulating relationships that have just faded off with no real communication from me. I have a hard time when I'm stunned or shocked, like I go into freeze and can't manage it, can't speak. Then time goes by and people think I purposely ghosted them. I think it stems from my mother stonewalling me, twisting things and blaming me, creating this huge victim/martyr and look how bad my daughter is narrative. I have a very hard time confronting people or even having a conversation over my feelings, wants or needs. So if someone is over the top, I tend to just back away, over and out. I don't feel good about that and want to handle things better but I'm not sure how capable. My voice quivers and I go silent like I literally can't speak. So part of wanting to reply is simply standing up for myself.
This is all so familiar.
My mother is the relationship police. She tells me when she thinks I should contact my sister or visit her. I usually say "um" and "ah" and then do nothing.
Occasionally my sister pushes for a visit or trip away together. I dislike these occasions. Partly because I find her difficult and partly because I am utterly sure she is only doing it because mother has prodded her.
Recently my mother contacted me to say she'd had a long conversation with my sister who was very unhappy with her life and they'd had a real heart to heart. Sister is enmeshed, so this was not a total surprise. Then mother said she thought I should visit my sister to give her some support. My mother did not feel she could visit because there had been an argument between them some months ago. I wish I had thought quickly enough to suggest that if my sister was pouring her heart out to her mother maybe it was because she wanted attention from her mother, not delegated attention from me. Alas, I just made non-committal noises. I did vow to make that point if mother ever raised the subject again, but she did not.
The "fatherly duty" is familiar too, though of course in my case it is motherly duty. That old saw is always being trotted out.
As for your last paragraph - I think there is a difference between standing up for yourself against your father and not being able to handle other relationships so you end up ghosting people. I have ghosted many people in my life for very similar reasons to you. But I don't think the experience of standing up to your father (if you do) will translate to communicating your wants and needs to other people. That is something that needs separate practice. Because if you stand up to your father and he just ignores you, or worse, it may just cement your belief that people will always behave badly to you. It would be a mistake to think others would do that if you communicate your needs to them, because most people do not. Even if there is an initial disagreement, once somebody has gone away to think about what was said, it is quite often the case that they come back and you negotiate and compromise and find a way forward. It feels very scary and unfamiliar when this happens. But people will not all treat you as your father does and you can only experience this by interacting with other people.
Thanks for sharing your story, too, narc kiddo. Your name brings to mind how our N step mom calls us "kiddo" when we once per year have a brief interaction with her. She can't wrap her head around her being older not meaning she is the "adult "or "the boss ". I told my dad if he wants a good relationship with me or a relationship at all. He needs to stop talking to me like I'm a child and so does she and they just go right ahead. So I've been very very low contact for quite a while.
Yes, my mom is very enmeshed with myGC sister. That's OK she can have her lol I have a good relationship with my sister or fairly good. I know there's some questionable dynamics there and to her I am at least subconsciously in that scapegoat role. She claims to support me, but really in the end. She somewhat believes my mother's narrative and somewhat believes it herself. Unfortunate.
NM more differentiated between me and my sister. Like making statements like I think this and she thinks that or I would do this and she does that. Yeah, what she thinks I'm thinking was never the case. Of course what my sister does aligns with what my mother thinks and I am the opposite. Gladly. For instance, she said she's closer to her because they have more in common. When my sister eloped for her first marriage and came home and made the announcement, my mother burst into tears, hysterically, crying, and saying that's some thing Phoebe would do, not you! In front of a room full of people. At the time I was just thinking "Yep! And you're the reason why. "But in hindsight that was pretty horrible of her to say. I actually really wanted a good relationship and a good marriage but I was too busy picking narcissistic jerks that felt like home. But anyway, I digress.
I know I have at least done enough healing and had enough distance overtime that when anybody tries to insert themselves in my brain or where they don't belong, telling me what to do or who to have a relationship with it is like extreme nails on the chalkboard and a, whether or not I say something or just back away. I was raised in a very, very high control environment, so I'm sensitive about that in the first place, but at least now I can see it is more their problem. It's easier to intellectualize than to feel though.
Hey Phoebes,
I don't think you're rambling and I think this stuff is confusing and we need a place to hash it out. Unfortuantely, for us, that didn't/couldn't come from our families, so we have to find some place to do it so we can make sense of it. I'm just beginning to understand how much there is in the family and I feel you that you couldn't talk to them about it. Mine is the same way, and even the cousins I have who get "it" only get it to a point I think, and aren't in therapy or digging themselves.
I'm sorry you had to go through that kind of "discipline." :hug: I was also a child of the 80s and sad to say, this was was a lot more acceptable. I found myself trying to preface or dance around my m using the wooden spoon the other day with my therapist and I was like, wait a minute, why am I trying to downplay this stuff? Because it wasn't right. I feel like I remember physical punishment just being phased out of schools when I started. Anyways, this kind of discipline was praised in my family.
I hope you're able to come to some sort of peace about the text with your dad. I feel you about just letting it fade. In the past if I would have pressed an issue like this, it would have resulted in my getting very angry at their lack of understanding and then it becomes a drama with nothing actually changing, just me banging my head against a wall. But I wouldn't forget either that he crossed a boundary and wasn't on your side when you needed him. I hope that you can go out there and live your best life without them :hug:
Sending you support,
dolly
:hug: thank you, Dolly :hug:
Phoebes I read your other blurb and wanted to say that comparing myself to others and the idea of what my life "should" be like is something I did a lot. I'm probably half where I am now because I had this idea of what I wanted my life to be like and then things sort of unravelled emotionally along the way, or I've been picking up the pieces and putting them back when they fall off. One thing for me that I've come to realize, and I'm no expert and still going through this, is that that idea of who I think I should be is the way the narcissistic abuse lives on through me. I was never could enough for them (there were four NPDs of varying flavours) and now I'm holding myself to that standard that I can never be good enough for anything else (or this, that -look a certain way for love, not be financially well off etc). It doesn't matter if those things are true or not because their ideas about my life still live on, and I think that maybe I think if I just fix this or that, I will have that love and be good enough. But it doesn't happen like that and it sucks. That questionable thing that I supposedly did wrong isn't going to be fixed because there was nothing wrong in the first place. This was all how they felt about themselves that they put into me and had me carry around because they couldn't deal with it, and I'm just beginning to figure out how to let go of that.
My m also flew into narcissistic rages and I'm probably hypervigilant because of that. People would tell me at work that I seem fearful despite half the things I've done with my life and how out of the box it is, which would probably freak a lot of people out. I think that seeming fearfulness is probably being wired from living with someone like that. I remember my m hitting me once because my eyes were laughing. Maybe they were, but it was probably just the part in me that exposed her as * (I know we're not supposed to swear on here, but it's really apt so remove it if needs be) that she couldn't handle, and there was nothing, is nothing wrong with that part. To me, it boggles the mind to try and untangle the level of self hatred that comes with something like that. I can't act like this because there's consequences, yet this is who I am and there's NOTHING I can do to change that. I told NARM t about this incident with my m recently and her reaction was that the level of self-policing needed because something as small as your eyes laughing is immense. So, everything I do/did became about "not upsetting the norm," whatever norm that is that I'm somehow upsetting. Somehow it's because I deviate from x that y is happening.
Anyways, these are just my family dynamics that I'm exploring and how it's related to me. I just wanted to say that I read what you wrote and I'm sorry that happened to you :hug:
dolly
Thank you, Dolly, I'm sorry that has been your experience too. I can really relate to feeling that hyper-vigilant state of self-monitoring that is foreign to most people. Smiling eyes are the best! How messed up these creatures must be. It's mind boggling that it's difficult to unentangle from them..the need for parental love is so strong it's hard to see it's not there. And then it's hard to see when good people do love us.
I took my post down because I felt like it was too much. People don't like that. I had who I considered a close friend about a year ago pretty much dump me because I couldn't seem to "let things go" about my parents and that seemed so incredibly dysfunctional to her. I guess I'm still sad about that and when these memories come up and I entertain them, I feel like I should keep it to myself. (Even on here). PA is very triggering for me, but I also need to remember that yes these things happened, they are real, and THIS is the monster I am dealing with when my entire family is expecting me to get over myself. It's like that Diddy video that just came out. A snippet of behind closed doors came out and now he's sorry "to god" (just what my mom said), not his victim. That struck me.
I'm sorry that you feel like you can't say what you need to on here. This should be the one place (at least) where you get to do that. I don't think you need to get over yourself or hide the things that happened to you.
I was just having a conversation with a new friend (how rarely I make those) and she was asking why so many people don't want to talk about this "stuff" (she had told me a little bit about her family etc), and I suggested that it would probably make them question their own lives which they don't want to do. I've been in those situations too and had someone text me a year after I last spoke to her (we spoke rarely anyways), and to not be "mad" at her because she hadn't reached out. She was upset with me for talking about the mess that was going on with my family after my mom had died a week before. This was someone who I was in high school with, and was an old friend (so I thought) so felt like I could talk about it. This was hurtful at the time, but looking back on it, she's someone that got married right away and is still living enmeshed with her dysfunctional (and abusive family). Me talking about mine likely brought up everything she doesn't want to deal with. She just wanted to talk about good things only. I've had a couple like that.
I also sort of learned about trauma bonds and I'm not trying to shame you mentioning it, just something I noticed I was doing where I would look to other people in my life to work through those experiences, but I also can't really depend on people to do that. It's much more difficult I think too when you don't have family to discuss it with, and want to talk to someone outside of therapy because I think we really are looking for someone to witness and understand especially coming from a NPD family. I guess on the flip side it can be a lot for people to handle, so I've sort of learned not to talk about it, or to go slow. Heidi Priebe has a good video on it.
Sending you support Phoebes you're not alone on here,
dolly
Quote from: Phoebes on May 20, 2024, 12:55:11 PMI took my post down because I felt like it was too much. People don't like that. I had who I considered a close friend about a year ago pretty much dump me because I couldn't seem to "let things go" about my parents and that seemed so incredibly dysfunctional to her. I guess I'm still sad about that and when these memories come up and I entertain them, I feel like I should keep it to myself. (Even on here).
Based on my own past, I can really understand that.
I'm wondering if you would be helped at all in this respect if you wrote this kind of difficult text on Member Journals? The information about them is on Recovery Journals, stick-ied at the top. See https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=15429.0. Sometimes I start posting about some particular topic on my Recovery Journal or on some other thread like this one. After a while I maybe get deeper into the topic and it feels too risky for me to leave it on the general forum visible for all members and non-members, so I copy the final couple of posts onto my Private Journal and continue there. The "risky" worry is based partly on the remote chance that somebody in FOO might come snooping and recognise me, but mostly it's due to me getting a bit EF-y.
If writing on Member Journals is unlikely to help you, you're welcome to just ignore my suggestion. You don't have to explain and justify yourself. :)
Dolly- your situation with your friend sounds familiar. It seems she could have easily been a friend who could hear it, but then it's upsetting to find out that's not the case. I've watched some of Heidi's videos..she's very good. I can understand the point about not really sharing about this stuff because, either it can be a big trigger for people, it can be like you said something they can't face in themselves, or even if they do want to listen, I don't think anyone can really get the experience fully. And if it is support we are seeking, it can leave us with a sense of not being understood yet again.
When I learned about trauma bonds I definitely recognized that that is what my mom and I have, probably still, since I'm still processing our relationship 9 years later. It definitely wasn't a loving relationship. More like a Stockholm syndrome situation.
Blueberry- good idea. Thanks for the suggestion. I really wasn't thinking about this forum being public. I at least thought you had to sign up for an account.
I appreciate the support from y'all. :grouphug:
I came back to this thread for an update. My GCs' wedding is tomorrow, and I have not heard from ENd since MD. We had previously talked about getting together Th/Fr (his suggestion), and now its F, and all I hear is he is going to GCs's today. That's totally fine, but it leaves me to wonder if he forgot we had that conversation AND was not interested in getting together, or is he giving me the "silent treatment" which is usually by proxy (such as NSM being pissed I didn't wish HER a happy MD.) did he send me the text about my NM to gaslight me AND to prompt wishing NsM HMD? 😆
Anyway, earlier this week I lost my dog, my heart dog who has been with me through all of this, so it has been a week of profound grief. I still plan to go to the wedding, even though GCs has given me an out several times. Why should I miss? I didn't do anything wrong.
Well, now as expected, an aunt has come out of the woodwork. I am very fond of this aunt and we text occasionally, she lives out of state but we have had some fun visits in the past. She's very kind. And very religious. The minute I had the issue with NM long ago, and I was toiling with whether to contact/being stalked, NM and her spouse drove to see this aunt, which felt like she was doing damage control. She hadn't been since she was with a previous relationship (with a woman my age), which I am "required" to keep secret from present (male) spouse. Another long story for another time.
After that, I received 2 cards for Christmas from said aunt. One regular, and one a letter about "family and forgiveness". A forgive and forget plea if you will. Well, nothing more has been said or asked, and now, years later, she sent me a text saying she's in town for the wedding, can't wait to see me, and that I can stay in the BR next to hers. At NM's!!! 😂 I swear you can't make this stuff up.
I was proud of myself in not getting very activated, only brief, and very calmly being able to say. I'm looking forward to seeing you at the wedding, my beloved dog passed away this week and I plan to just come home. She responded that she understood, etc.....
It does bother me that she's never asked my story, but it did shock me a little she pulled a "my dad." Lol :fallingbricks:
Hi Phoebes,
I think you have a lot going on right now. I just finished reading Believing Me by Ingrid Clayton, and there's a part in it where she's weighing up whether to be there for her (gaslighting) mother in her time of need, or listen to herself and not be the "good girl," and do the thing that's expected from her because then they will think she's a "bad daughter" etc. Her friend asks her, what would you do if you were putting yourself first for once in your life? I thought that was really powerful because I know I've been in the same situation.
I agree that you should be able to go and have a good time, but I think the reality is is you're going to be in some difficult situations if you do go, and are you prepared for what happens if you do enforce your boundaries, or stand up for yourself? Will you be able to do it without gaslighting yourself? It sounds like you did it with your aunt :cheer: What is going to happen to little Phoebes though if none of these people are on her side, or show up for her, again? If you're able to be there for that part of you then I think, and this is me and my advice talking, then go. However, you're not a bad person/daughter etc for not going and showing up for people who weren't there for you (I know it's your cousin (?) so you could show up for her, but as someone else mentioned on another thread, skip the party etc).
I'm sorry about your dog :grouphug:
Sending you support,
dolly
Thank you, Dolly, :grouphug:
I love Ingrid, and resonate with her a lot. I have not yet read her book but I've heard her talk a lot about it in podcasts and videos.
I'm totally on the same page with what you are saying. There will be weirdness, and now there's the added element of grieving, which suddenly happens at the slightest anything. I don't want to be a distraction for my sister's wedding, however, I cannot cry in front of these people or anyone (because of NM's emotional abuse around that topic). I don't know because I've come along way and feeling my feelings and allowing myself to show emotion. My family is not the cause-a-scene type. I think they won't be focused on me at all so maybe it won't be so bad? There will be friends there as well that I can focus on.
That said, I don't want to not show because I do want to be there for her day. I have mixed feelings about this decision and I don't know this person very well, but that is beside the point. Maybe I will see through this event more what he is like. it's strange that his only guest coming is his dad. Not even his mom is coming. I know families can be weird so I don't fault him for that but I do find it interesting that my sister is a little aloof about that. on the Evite that his family did not even respond yes or no or comment. Apparently they each one had an excuse why they can't come. The mom's excuse is she thought she would embarrassed him. ??
Yesterday I was able to get out of the house, go grocery shopping and go walking, and talk to a friend on the phone. I felt like I needed a change of scenery and to get out and accomplish some thing. I also picked up my babies ashes late yesterday evening.
My work is in the not-fawning for sure. There have been instances lately where I feel like hey I just handled this totally different than I would have before. That feels good. Then other times I'm thinking dammit why did I fawn? But I can sometimes give myself a break and see that I have grown. I'm not around people that much so I don't have tons of opportunity, but I think tuning in to how I feel in my nervous system and pausing in the moment before I say or do anything is helpful.
I'm a bit concerned with how people just run up and touch me or hug me. That's what our family does. No boundaries or consent, so that will be awkward when I cross my arms, jump back and walk away.
I also want to show the crazies I'm not staying away because of them. I think I'm trying to think, ya know what, I can say hello, be polite and brief, and leave when I want. Truly, I don't feel like I've done anything wrong by being no contact. I've never seen evidence of anything changing. If I did, I would be open to conversation. But I'm no longer expecting it, and I'm not crazy.
In 2005 my therapist at the time asked me how it felt to not have anyone in my family love me? I didn't fully comprehend what he was saying until a few weeks ago. A lot of the times we get pulled into things and gaslit from such a young age that we think it's love, and/or wrestle with the truth of what the relationship actually is because it's more painful to see that they never really loved us.
As an outsider looking in, some random person from the internet, I don't think the problem is you. I think it's a big step to realize that they're not going to change and to not expect them to. I also wouldn't waste my time trying to prove anything to them or not. Unfortunately, I think it's probably to do with people who have made the child you feel small and powerless, and you are looking for a way to show them that they can't hurt you. At least this is my thinking, so please disregard if it's not applicable. I know I've felt those feelings and that way many times. These people spent a lot of time making me feel bad and I wanted to fight that, but it just kept me entangled with them. Like Ingrid wrote, what would you do if you put yourself first in your life? The same t used to tell me, who's life is it anyways? I'm only really truly starting to get that one now. I never owed the people who weren't there for me anything. I deserve(d) to put myself first.
I hope you're able to be there for you and your parts. We'll be here for you along the way.
Sending you support,
dolly