Out of the Storm

TW - some references to sexual behaviour, and miscellaneous levels of "ewwwww" inducing behaviour.

I've noticed a few references to physical touch on the forum lately.

Chaos rains started a thread about memories which also mentions aversion to mother's touch. Others (me included) said they had an aversion too. There was a reference somewhere else to a dislike of physical touch.

For myself, I have a huge personal space zone. I do not like people standing too close to me. I do not like them touching me. I can handle social hugs, oddly, but anyone reaching out to me unbidden, even just to tap my arm, makes me cringe inwardly. I can deal with medical touch but have realised I just do that by dissociating. My fitness coach is very respectful and I am happy enough for him to touch me - but if he does so unexpectedly I feel an anger reaction. One of my boxing coaches started tapping me back with the focus pads. Not hard, but the fury it provoked was quite surprising to me. It was hard to control, though I did. I was too unsure of myself back then to tell him to stop but he used to be in the army and I think he knows a fight reaction when he sees one so he stopped anyway.

My mother trained me that all men want is sex and women must be obliging and enthusiastic. I thought for the longest time that I enjoy sex but actually I do not enjoy it at all. Especially not if there is any danger of it veering into tender, romantic, loving territory. Energetic exercise is all that is tolerable.

Weirdly, I enjoy a sports massage. I have had very tight shoulders and back since my early teens and massage really helps with that.

Touch from my mother repulses me. From my father not so much but he is not at all touchy-feely.

Now for the ewww factor. Some while ago I visited my mother who presented me with a small ball of what looked like felted wool. I asked her what it was. Turns out she had picked the old hair out of her hairbrush and made it into a ball which apparently I could use as a pincushion!

On a recent visit I discovered she has been saving hair from my sister when she cuts it for her, and has been making these fur balls out of my sister's hair too. I find these hair balls utterly repellant. Also, I would never give her my hair. For some reason it feels really dangerous to do so. I would not even give her my toenail clippings. I find it interesting why I should have such a visceral reaction to the notion of giving her my hair. It's even worse than being given hers.

So, there's the random musings on touch that I felt the need to unburden onto the forum. Feel free to add your own thoughts on the subject.

Oh my geez NK! Your mom is just flat out nuts! It's like something in a movie. I too would be so so repulsed by the idea of my mother having possession of any of my ahem personal effects in your situation. Holy smokes! It's so disturbing it is almost funny my dear. How did you turn out so normal????

Your horror has made me burst out laughing, Armee! If we didn't laugh I don't know what we'd do. I've just finished a session with my T and I was telling her about the hairballs. Her facial expressions were a picture! I told her I was very relieved because I had been wondering whether my creeped-out feelings about it were fully justifiable. She assured me they are and commented that mother's behaviour is very interesting from a psychological point of view. That's putting it mildly...

I feel slightly less weird now for my habit of cutting up my hairballs to add to the compost.

Quote from: Bach on February 22, 2024, 05:09:03 PMI feel slightly less weird now for my habit of cutting up my hairballs to add to the compost.

Now, see, that is a completely sensible use for unwanted hair. Just like putting coffee grounds in the garden, which apparently is good for the soil.

NarcKiddo,
Very much agree with Armee, I too burst out laughing at the reveal it was a hairball she had given you! I was not expecting that in the least.

On the surface it's a gift, so one thinks they should be grateful, but it's made out of something gross, so why would anyone want it? And why would anyone give it??

Quote from: NarcKiddo on February 21, 2024, 04:49:02 PMI find it interesting why I should have such a visceral reaction to the notion of giving her my hair. It's even worse than being given hers.

There is a sticky gross closeness I feel with parts of my family where I detest their desire to come close to me, whether that's through confiding in me, gifts, or physical touch. I think for me it comes from knowing the kind of closeness they want isn't safe and isn't in fact closeness but control or possession. They want me as an extension of themselves but not as the person I am. Their closeness is conditional and so it disgusts me, as I feel they are performing to get what they want.

So I feel repulsed at the idea of giving them even an inch of me. I feel very protective of what I share with my family and so can relate to that feeling of danger you express at the thought of giving her your hair or toenails.

OMG, eeeeeeew is right.  I'm fairly certain I'm not going to get the pincushion gift out of my head for a day or two.  I can't even concentrate on the other part of your post to comment. Just  :aaauuugh:   Your M really is a strange one NarcKiddo. I'm used to 'normal' types of abuse here but things like that just are so outside the realm of 'common' abuse. I feel like she was bestowing this immensely important gift of herself not realizing how gross it is because she is an N.

Quote from: NarcKiddo on February 22, 2024, 05:30:41 PM

Quote from: Bach on February 22, 2024, 05:09:03 PMI feel slightly less weird now for my habit of cutting up my hairballs to add to the compost.

Now, see, that is a completely sensible use for unwanted hair. Just like putting coffee grounds in the garden, which apparently is good for the soil.

 :yeahthat:

And please note Bach that whether you place hair in the garbage or in the soil to compost that is totally different from placing it in someone's hands ewww! to lie around their house ewww! as a pin-cushion ewww!

NK, your M sounds totally out to lunch, among other 'problems' she has of course. Even if she's from the waste not, want not generation, this is really taking that too far! Pin-cushion made of scraps of cloth - yes. Made of hair - no.

I wanted to circle back to not wanting to be touched as that's an issue for me as well NarcKiddo.  I've come to think of myself as having induced asexuality or perhaps I am actually asexual I don't know. I don't want sex and I hate seeing it on TV or in movies.  It's not that I am a prude per se, I just think it's such a private thing that it just seems so exploitive to see it on screen. I find it so cringeworthy that I will often advance the remote to get through the sex scenes.

I'm OK with hugs and holding hands but that's about it. I always felt this was strange given I wasn't sexuallly abused but I now think any type of abuse can result in wanting to not have our space "invaded', of not wanting to let people too close to us emotionally but also physically.

That's interesting, Kizzie.

I wonder whether those of us who were abused by our parents, even if SA was not involved, became very conscious of the power imbalance at a very early age. If the parent used any sort of physical chastisement that would make it worse. We realised that the very people we were supposed to be able to trust and rely on were actually not safe to trust. It's well known that most of us, if not all, have trust issues and of course physical intimacy requires a huge level of trust. Added to which there is almost always a physical power imbalance in relations between males and females simply due to the usual disparity of physical size, weight and strength. I think that is maybe why I struggle with physical and emotional intimacy happening at the same time, which of course is the whole idea of sexual relations within a committed relationship. The biggest problem for me is emotional intimacy - physical alone is tolerable and it has been a somewhat surprising revelation to me that I dislike it as much as I do.

I agree Kizzie with your theory. When I think of my parents I think get away from me don't look at me don't touch me. I don't think it has much if anything to do with SA. Even my kids I cringed when they would climb on me and breastfeeding felt awful. Before therapy I thought I was autistic partially because of this hatred for physical touch.  I remember someone making fun of me because of how I would immediately jerk my arm away if they touched my arm. Ugh. I also consider myself fairly asexual. I don't think that's a coincidence.

From the other side of this, I crave affectionate physical touch. Sex confuses the issue, but I yearn for uncomplicated hugging and cuddling. When I was in my late teens I had a couple of friendships that consisted mostly of talking and cuddling or watching TV and cuddling. I still think longingly of those friendships.

I do remember when I was in my early teens my cousin and I would brush each other's long hair and I loved that.  To this day I love getting my hair washed at the hairdressers. Odd what sticks with you but my cousin and I got along quite well and I guess I felt safe with her.  We lived in different towns though so I only saw her summers and sometimes on holidays.

Just kinda popping in here as someone who is asexual to clarify a bit: Asexuality is a lack of sexual *attraction* to any person in particular. You can be asexual and have a libido or not, be sex averse or not, it's a spectrum.  Kinda like looking at a menu and going "eh, nothing in particular looks better than anything else." Also I don't usually like that comparison as it encourages the haters who are all "everyone has to want sex, it's how our species continues." For example, I am asexual. I can appreciate someone being aesthetically attractive, but that doesn't mean I'm sexually attracted to them. I personally don't care what others do and support a healthy sexuality and safe/sane/consensual choices for others.  As I like to describe it, I might appreciate the artwork, but i don't want to hang it over the fireplace. (LOL)

this is a great resource: https://www.asexuality.org  Asexuality Visibility and Education Network.

It's also important to point out that even if one is asexual due to trauma, that's perfectly valid. It's also valid if that isn't the reason. We're all valid.

*** Trigger alert: slight SA reference in first paragraph

First, I'm very skittish around issues of touch. I presume lots of this may stem from SA molestations endured for 9 years from the m (too uncomfortable to refer to her as anything but m).

Moving on, yes I eventually found some touch to be okay, but also noticed it usually had litte if anything to do with the usual pop sexuality categories. Seems most of my attraction (I'm a guy, btw) came/comes about from a person's intellectual side, i.e. what makes them tick -- their mind, emotional maturity, general outlook, that sort of thing (for starters).

The term for this is sapiosexuality, and any physical appeal fades in relation to interests beyond the usual assumptions. Conversation, educational sorts of activities, and musical exchange is more important to both parties.

What has bothered me a lot over the years is what I'll call gratuitous hugging. In particular, if it comes from a "well-meaning" sort who may know about my early and subsequent background of traumas (not only SA).

Especially, I'm recalling one person who seemed safe enough. We shared lots of mutual intrigues but once she learned just a couple tidbits of my previous traumas it was like the floodgates opened, and the hugs came pouring on, in force and feeling hypocritical and manipulative as time went on. Finally I could stand no more of this gratuitous sort of over-the-top approach and pulled away from what had seemed okay.

Something else I've noticed all along, with all touch, is how it makes me wary to the point of being afraid, very disappointed, but trying hard to not make it worse by blaming myself.

Just to type these few words has been a bit edgy for me, but the subject of touch always seems to seep some bad vibes into my being.

Now, I'll try posting this and not removing it as I did with a previous attempt to express where I'm coming from on this. Thanks for listening.

Thank you for expressing this, both Woodsgnome and Cactus Flower.

 :yeahthat:

I think this is a fascinating subject, particularly in the different ways it impacts us. I'm going through a lot of medical checks at the moment which of necessity involve touch which is usually unpleasant even when done with kindness and respect. It is very mentally draining.

Today I have been thinking about other aspects of touch. For instance, I have heard that many people find weighted blankets very soothing. I have heard, indeed, that some people with autism find it very soothing to be in a small, confined space, touching the sides. This does not surprise me. I have not experimented with a weighted blanket but I do have to sleep under a duvet even if the weather is hot. I also have to wear a vest (camisole undergarment) under my clothing even on the hottest days. I find the full-body contact of a snug-fitting item of clothing to be very soothing, so long as it does not hinder movement. I am in eternal debt to whoever invented elastane and lycra!

It's seems like you give yourself an ongoing self-hug NK, feelings of being grounded without the actual hugging/touching from others. I know dogs who are quite anxious soothe when they are given a calming coat to wear. Anyway, it all seems to tell the nervous system "hey you're safe and comforted, not free floating in chaos".  I don't know if anyone watched the show Big Bang Theory but I remember the character Leonard telling the gang he had built a hugging machine when he was young because his parents did not ever hug him.

Cactus Flower - I agree about it seeming like the whole world thinks we should all want sex. I used to cringe and feel guilty/different until I came across some sites for those who are asexual. Like Complex PTSD, once again I feel like I belong to a different sort of tribe and that it's OK to be who I am.

I highly recommend the weighted blanket. I was lucky enough to find one being given away in a local Facebook group that was the right weight (it's supposed to be 10% of your body weight) and it's really pretty. I got under it during a freak-out and was stunned. I couldn't even explain why it worked, but I did calm down and felt better much faster than normal. Maybe the stimulation distracts your brain? I don't know. I can't really use it when it's warm out, though, at least not for long.

I've thought about "touch starved" and "touch averse". I generally don't willingly touch anyone but my bro and my BFF, and I accept touch from them. They're definitely the only ones I hug. I don't feel like I'm touch starved, but that might be my brain saying that it's better than touch with ulterior motives. I can deal with handshakes to be polite, but things like hugging in workshops? I do not like that, it feels forced and phony to me. There are a few very close friends I've known for decades that I would hug, but they don't live anywhere near me.

Interesting thread, narc kiddo and others! This resonated with me so I thought I'd share. I knew with your TW it might be humorous, and hairballs did not disappoint!

Touch for me is a nuanced topic, and I think for th most part it is the 'expectation' that makes it repulsive for me. First, my NMom who was physically abusive, a,ongst other types..fear-inducing and not loving, then around people she would put on a display of hugging me. Then, her hugs are the creepy, too clingy, too long type of hugs that make your skin crawl.

My enabling dad's hugs had that lingering too long, and somehow slightly sexual in innuendo. Like his hand would be a little too low or high. Whatever the case, I never got the sense from my parents that hugs were a comforting, comfortable or endearing thing. They were sort of a creepy requirement, mostly for show around other people.

That said, I'm OK with hugs from certain people. I can tell the type of people who have a healthy way of interacting and hugging, and that's fine.

Just with basic touch, though, I am more sensitive than the common person. I don't like people touching my hair, especially. Don't like people who walk up and get all touchy-feely and if you poke me for any reason, I will likely come unglued internally when I say something like, please don't do that most people make a comment like I'm too sensitive or a cold or they were just being friendly. Maybe I don't have a sense for what, but I do know that I don't like.