So in my group therapy session this week, our T said she has been seeing more about trauma causing "acquired neurodiversity". I've just started poking around about it but was wondering if anyone had heard this in reference to what happens to our brains due to trauma?
Can you tell me (briefly) what acquired neurodiversity is or how it manifests itself? I mean, I could Google but am a bit pushed for time and not sure if I might have come across the concept via another descriptor.
She told us that it is changes in our brains, how it functions, due to the constant exposure to trauma and the chemicals and signals that impinge on us brain and body. We become neurodivergent, we are not born neurodivergent as with autism and due to our environment. That's the 'latest' in the field apparently so not sure how evidence based it is. We didn't go much further into it than that but I find it really intriguing.
If/when I find some info on it I'll post some links. I was just curious if anyone had heard of it as I do read a lot and had never heard of it possibly because it is quite new. :Idunno:
....the neurodiversity movement is, 'a social justice movement that seeks civil rights, equality, respect, and full societal inclusion for the neurodivergent' (Dr. Nick Walker)....That is, it is a movement that seeks full inclusion and respect of people whose brains function differently from the neurotypical majority.
PTSD and C-PTSD are now considered by many to be within the umbrella of neurodivergence, but fall under the category of acquired neurodivergence. That is, a kind of neurological difference that is related to an event or series of events, and not the result of innate, primarily genetic difference(s) as with Autism, ADHD, Dyslexia or other kinds of neurological difference.
The inclusion of PTSD under the banner of neurodivergence makes sense, particularly given that it is now widely accepted that trauma changes the brain. The precise mechanisms of this are complex and can vary, but some reasons being that trauma can lead to an overactive amygdala (the part of our brain that manages the fight or flight response), lessened or changed connectivity between the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex (the area of the brain that orchestrates executive function), as well as decreased activity in certain parts of the prefrontal cortex. This can lead to significant challenges with executive functioning, emotional regulation, working memory and more .
https://www.tiimoapp.com/blog/neurodivergence-war-social-justice
I haven't heard this term used before, but it does make sense. As i think ThreeRoses used to say, cptsd is a brain injury (not a mental illness) so it's not surprising that it causes some neurodiversity.
I think that all makes perfect sense and it's something that I have certainly posted about, but then probably deleted. I know when I reread many of my symptoms they read as neuro diversity, and somehow I can see that how they express themselves are through the face of trauma. I avoid overstimulating environments because it makes me feel panicky and unsafe. In a way it's the same kind of losing track of my body in space feeling and losing track of your thoughts. It's described so similarly, but just a different neuro pathway.
I too am very impacted by noisy, crowded, busy environments Bermuda. They just drain me I think because it sets off the sirens clanging in my system and raises my hypervigilance tenfold. I avoid them now and keep to quieter, less active spaces when I can.
It makes sense to me too that this is a form of acquired neurodivergence, explains a lot about our symptoms and that they last for so long. For example, I still have such a strong startle response despite the fact there's no real danger.
I have poked around a little looking for info/articles but haven't come up with too much yet. I'm going to ask my T this next session if she can pass some links along.
Anyway, I would much rather see my differences as acquired neurodivergence than brain damaged as I've seen us described.
I'm not a professional, but it feels like it isn't damage. It feels like parts of our brain have to shut down, and have to learn to shut down, and other parts have to learn to multitask. It feels more like a reorganisation of sorts, not a highly beneficial one, clearly. ...But it served its purpose.
I agree Bermuda and I get a little hot under the collar when I do see people describe us or themselves as brain damaged. Acquired neurodivergence is so much more accurate about the ways in which I feel I am different than others. "Rewired" is good too ;D
I started thinking I'd been autistic my whole life so started taking online autism tests, which all said I was probably very autistic but that other conditions overlap.
I was selectively mute from as far back as I can remember, and no adults ever intervened. They thought I was deaf after I just sat blankly through hearing tests because I was too anxious and embarrassed to hit the table with the wooden hammer when I heard the beeps through the headphones.
I'm definitely neurodivergent. But my son explained to me that I was traumatized from before I was born, so I would have had CPTSD from a young age. And of course my mother did everything possible to make herself appear perfect so I was just considered a naughty child.
I do worry that a lot of traumatized children are misdiagnosed with autism, but at least if they have the autism diagnosis there will be things in place to help them navigate the world around them (I hope).
All my son's friends - every one of them has an autism diagnosis. Only one of them has no history of trauma. One specifically went through extreme DV in her younger years. Autistic or not, they all but one probably have CPTSD, undiagnosed.
I wonder if the UK prefers to keep its true abuse statistics cleanly hidden behind a veneer of autism diagnoses?
So many kids these days are diagnosed as autistic, when in fact the world itself is becoming overwhelming... and of course people aren't going to be able to cope with an overload of information and so much pressure to not only conform, but succeed in an ever changing, increasingly competitive, increasingly unaffordable world. Threats of war, so many refugees struggling to survive in a hostile environment, having fled war and famine...ugh... it's scary how little compassion so many have.
I was waiting outside a shop with my dog, for my partner to come out and an Afghan refugee offered me some money - he thought I was homeless: I was overwhelmed by his kindness. He'd lost EVERYTHING yet his compassion was greater than those amongst the locals who were campaigning to get rid of the refugees... making lies about them...they were generally very polite and frightened. I was sad to see them moved on to goodness knows where. Anyway... life's hard for so many.
Thank you for that article, Kizzy. It's well needed!
Quote from: Saluki on September 19, 2023, 02:01:52 PMI wonder if the UK prefers to keep its true abuse statistics cleanly hidden behind a veneer of autism diagnoses?
I have often wondered about the huge increase in such diagnoses.
I don't think abuse is being deliberately hidden, although I think people may grasp at the first "respectable" diagnosis without digging deeper. I do think people don't know about CPTSD and a lot of abuse is not recognised for what it is. Not even by the victims, in many cases. Especially not as children. So all these "nice" and "respectable" people can just carry on.
Perhaps it is the case that the neurodivergent behaviour is a symptom, or a result, but because it is viewed as a condition nobody thinks to dig deeper and see if abuse is involved.
I forgot to ask my T for some research/articles on this at group therapy on the weekend. I did look around, even in Google Scholar, but acquired ND seems to be mostly about TBI. There's a few things about trauma and AQND but they weren't particularly in-depth or evidence based IMO. Being a clinician my T may be seeing some really new info about it. I'll email her to see as we don't meet for two weeks.
It seems that the term neurodiversity is just descriptive, not a medical term. But I found this at the Cleveland Clinic site:
Neurodiversity refers to the unique way that each person's brain develops. That means it's not preventable, treatable or curable."
But! Brain development is highly influenced by environment (full disclosure- I'm a neuroscientist). We all know that our condition was caused by external events, people, and stimuli. Totally preventable. personally don't feel diverse as much as I just feel damaged.
I just don't like feeling I am damaged, nope. I'd rather use the term AQND. One reason is I feel like medical/mental health professionals may understand more what happened to us than we were psychologically damaged, that trauma is very physical as well and changes or rewires (versus damages?) neural pathways. Maybe in the end it all comes to the same thing IDK.
I did read somewhere that some forms of AQND can be changed/treated, trauma being one of them meaning I think that we can rewire our brains? Chaos Rains you probably know about this. Apparently Bessel van der Kolk has things to say about this so I'm going to check "The Body Keeps the Score" and see what I can find if anything.
One thing about being AQND that is positive is that there is a large ND community with a strong voice which means we have access to two support communities. I'm early in my thinking on the whole subject but this may mean we (relational trauma survivors) would have a louder voice and more power to raise awareness possibly. Just noodling now ;D
PS - I did email my T so we'll see if she comes back with anything. She's away for the week so it may be a bit.
Yeah, not the best word usage on my part and probably just reflects my anger at those who let this happen. In that sense I totally agree - trauma is by definition acquired and so calling it acquired neurodiversity is appropriate enough.
Our brains can rewire to some extent, but the more exposure you have to something, especially something that involves extreme emotions, the more ingrained the response becomes and the less likely it is that you can undo it. What happened to us was incessant repetitive abuse over a long time that led to a certain kind of learning that is tough to change. There is a large body of research on fear conditioning and I think that is what we have all been subject to. And I don't know if it can be totally unlearned. I think we can adapt to some extent, but reflexive response that is fear is just so pervasive and persistent.
I don't mean to sound hopeless. We *can* manage it, and I think we're all prime examples of that.
It's been 15+ years since I moved out of research and into administration, so I'm not up on the latest, and I should finish Bessel van der Kolk's book, too.
Quote from: Chaos rains on September 20, 2023, 07:32:47 PMI don't mean to sound hopeless. We *can* manage it, and I think we're all prime examples of that.
These days I feel more like a prime example of
not managing.
Quote from: Chaos rains on September 20, 2023, 07:32:47 PMOur brains can rewire to some extent, but the more exposure you have to something, especially something that involves extreme emotions, the more ingrained the response becomes and the less likely it is that you can undo it.
Chaos rains, I got badly retraumatised in FOO twice as an adult. Once about 10 years ago and then again maybe 7 years ago. I'm in my 50's btw. I already had trauma brain before then but things were better again brain-wise - not really good - but better than they had been. A lot less brain-fog etc. than in childhood and up until my 30's. Then in the aftermath of the retraumatisation about 7 years ago I realised I was having trouble forming new memories, though come to think of it the occurence 7 years ago was probably also a new emotional traumatisation, as I finally realised what FOO really thinks of me and realised how little they care. Linking to your words above, I suddenly had
exposure to what they really thought and think of and about me. My
emotions were
extreme and gut-wrenching and heart-wrenching. It was awful. In the aftermath I came to the conclusion that I can allow myself to suffer that depth of retraumatisation only so many times and therefore not going through that again with FOO. But now I wonder after reading your post whether these (re)traumatisations knocked the re-wiring back so badly that doing a new re-wire is almost not on the cards? I have made progress since then but it's very slow going and rn everything feels very hopeless. Do you have any thoughts on the neuroscience there?
btw I feel more damaged than neurodiverse. Partly because 'neurodiverse' isn't really in my passive vocabulary never mind active. Maybe also because I still do tend to speak and think badly of myself so 'damaged' with a little derogatory laugh at myself fits :thumbdown:
In the prior post, Blueberry asks: But now I wonder after reading your post whether these (re)traumatisations knocked the re-wiring back so badly that doing a new re-wire is almost not on the cards?
This thought is right on target, I wonder too. It almost seems to be a self-cancelling situation. The brain made a re-wire attempt, which was not locked into place, maybe having only one or two reccurances. Then a new trauma activated the original connection, which was stronger that the one/two time re-wire.
Thank you Blueberry.
Blueberry, I'm so sorry to hear this. They get us coming and going, don't they? Re-wiring is always in the cards, it just takes longer the older we get. And, as Lakelynn points out, the "trauma connections", however they are represented in our brains, have more chances to be reinforced over time. You can start to forget about something, which maybe means that those particular connections are not being used as much and so the connections weaken, maybe they don't elicit such a strong emotion when they do occasionally activate. You "habituate" to them. But one good re-exposure gets everything activated again. Some conscious memories fade, but these sub-conscious memories really don't seem to as much.
I don't want this sound hopeless because within the past five years I have experienced some measure of recovery - though I'm not sure recovery is the right word either. Maybe i should say I have achieved some measure of peace. I am in my mid-60's and have been in a state of emotional despair for the vast majority of my life. My current therapist is using a Developmental Needs-Meeting Strategy that has been a good fit for me. I can't explain it (yet) from a neuroscience perspective, but it's calmed my nervous system enough to notice. I really believe that there are strategies to either weaken those connections, or replace our current responses with new ones, or something. But like I said, I'm not on top of the current research. Those strategies might already be in use. Or maybe have been disproved. I'll have to read up on it.
My T was at the airport on her way to Vancouver but she did text me this link - https://khironclinics.com/blog/trauma-and-neurodiversity/. This paragraph resonated for me:
Traumatic Sensory Overload
People with differing sensory experiences often find the world a hard place to inhabit. For most of us, the sound of a fire alarm, leaf blower, or a crisp packet crackling wouldn't even register; we'd forget about it the minute it passed. However, these sounds can be completely overwhelming for those prone to sensory overload, causing their nervous system to move into fight, flight, or freeze.
This is compounded by the fact that these experiences are often invalidated or not accommodated by others around them. As a result, people often learn to mask their threat response because they don't want to show fear or embarrass themselves, which does not allow the nervous system to complete the threat cycle.
The rest seems to be about how ND people are more prone to trauma versus trauma causing AQND so :Idunno: Maybe I'm not reading it correctly but it's what I have been mostly coming across; that is, how ND people are more prone to trauma versus trauma causing AQND.
She also sent me this which does sound like it's about trauma causing AQND but I can't get at the complete article. I'll ask her if she can send the whole article when she's back.
https://www.aota.org/publications/sis-quarterly/mental-health-sis/mhsis-8-22 - Complex trauma and neurodiversity: What happens in childhood doesn't always stay in childhood.
Wow! This is a wonderful thread here!
Chaos rains says: My current therapist is using a Developmental Needs-Meeting Strategy. That sounds very close to the current theories of "re-parenting." Not so much having to do with who is doing the parenting, in this case, ourselves, but the developmental need/task that wasn't completed successfully at the time it presented itself. I may be off in left field here. I often remark to my T that I'm learning now age 71, what I needed to learn at ages 7-9.
Kizzie says: , people often learn to mask their threat response... which does not allow the nervous system to complete the threat cycle.
And in effect, we are then our own "worst enemies" through no conscious desire of our own.
I find it encouraging that despite the definitions of recovery or symptom management that some of us have felt peace and calm, even for brief moments, minutes, hours or even (gasp!) days! I had one myself yesterday. I used a home grown catnip (yes CATNIP) dried mix to make tea, just to experiment and see what would happen. All of a sudden the constant swirling thoughts came to a standstill and I was "zoned out" for maybe 2-3 minutes. I thought, NICE!Then fears and doubts returned in full force. I still (choose) to believe there might be just "one more" idea or theory I don't know about which will provide that key to "everything." I'll still have to do the work, but will be confident of having a full toolbox.
The more I look into it the more I believe I am neurodivergent, however, in seeking an assessment GP's point out the over lap with trauma. When your trauma began from birth how can you tell?
G
I think neurodivergence can be acquired. The terms "neurodivergent" or "neurodivergence" haven't been around all that long, in the grand scheme of things, and neuroscience is still pretty much a new field of study that's expanding all the time.
It's not unheard of to have terms redefined as our understanding of biology expands and is refined.
I know that I have sensory overload at times. I used to watch a YouTube channel regularly about a girl who is autistic and is nonverbal. I could so relate to some of her stims, but I know I'm not autistic.
I do have migraines, which are also a form of neurodivergence, and my mother and her mother also had migraines, so it's possible that a lot of the dysfunction has its roots in the migraine disease. But in addition to migraine, I have times when life just becomes overwhelming and I need to cocoon. Sounds become too loud, light too bright, touch too - not painful, but uncomfortable.
I could totally see CPTSD as causing neurodivergence.
The thing that resonates the most for me about AQND is how I react to too much light, noise, smells, etc. It's sensory overload which I see myself as acquiring because I was so overstimulated growing up. Life was chaotic and I know now all the chemicals flooding my system made me more raw and sensitive. I have a huge startle response, don't like noisy crowded spaces, strong smells...
As BB suggested, this leads me to wonder if we can learn to calm/rewire our systems. Seems like it would take a massive effort daily and even then? :Idunno:
Quote from: Fraying on October 04, 2023, 01:14:55 PMIt's not unheard of to have terms redefined as our understanding of biology expands and is refined.
:yeahthat: Or at least with terms in all sorts of areas since I'm not too knowledgeable in scientific areas. If I think about it, it seems a term like "neurodiversity" is fairly expandable with more research in and thought on the topic. e.g. researchers / scientists / people in medical field look at it from trauma angle and then comes :light bulb: oh,
that too.
Quote from: Fraying on October 04, 2023, 01:14:55 PMI have times when life just becomes overwhelming and I need to cocoon. Sounds become too loud
Life often becomes overwhelming for me and I often cocoon. For decades I've
really been bothered by people whispering and talking in the background when I'm trying to listen to something else. There are reasons why it could be plain old triggering for me. These days my hearing is not as good as it used to be.
I think though in my case that it may be that I sense / feel too many emotions in the air and that overwhelms me. And then I need to cocoon, really badly. So it's not so much of an overwhelm in physical sensations like smell or sight.
Like Kizzie I have a huge startle response, at times anyway. That has got a lot better :cheer: so actually there is hope :) and I guess we can calm our systems a bit. otoh once one symptom of mine seems somewhat calmed, it's as if something else rises to the surface that had been held back, mostly unobserved by me, by the improved symptom. Recovery then seems never-ending. Compounded trauma :thumbdown:
Blueberry, at the end here you mentioned something: "once one symptom of mine seems somewhat calmed, it's as if something else rises to the surface that had been held back, mostly unobserved by me, by the improved symptom." I feel the exact same way, only I call it "whack-a-mole".
Last summer I had a strange episode when I lost most of my vision for about 15 seconds. Unfortunately this happened at the exact time a truck was backing out of a parking space. I only perceived movement, and pushed myself away from it, landing on the concrete. Ever since then I've been sensitive to light, especially bright light, outside, inside it doesn't matter. (I had a complete workup, nothing conclusive)
As I read through this and learn of others' reactions and strategies, I'm starting to think that age plays a role. We may have pre-existing sensitivities of sorts, startle responses, over stimulation, auditory sensitivities, which may have been masked or managed simply by sheer willpower, especially during working or child rearing years. Then when some of those external demands fall off, the old stuff "comes out to play" again.
When COVID hit, I found myself in bed in a dark room 12 hours a day. Liking it. That urge to cocoon was not evident before 2020. But it has hung on. It appears I'm making a case for acquired, by virtue of our common treatment and disrespect by "caregivers" which has a real potential to emerge later in life in full force.
Quotewhen some of those external demands fall off, the old stuff "comes out to play" again.
:thumbup: Spot on I think.
Quote from: Kizzie on October 04, 2023, 03:59:10 PMThe thing that resonates the most for me about AQND is how I react to too much light, noise, smells, etc. It's sensory overload which I see myself as acquiring because I was so overstimulated growing up. Life was chaotic and I know now all the chemicals flooding my system made me more raw and sensitive. I have a huge startle response, don't like noisy crowded spaces, strong smells...
As BB suggested, this leads me to wonder if we can learn to calm/rewire our systems. Seems like it would take a massive effort daily and even then? :Idunno:
Me, too, to all of that! And I think we
can learn to rewire ourselves. At least, I'm going to try!
Quote from: Lakelynn on October 05, 2023, 12:59:54 AMBlueberry, at the end here you mentioned something: "once one symptom of mine seems somewhat calmed, it's as if something else rises to the surface that had been held back, mostly unobserved by me, by the improved symptom." I feel the exact same way, only I call it "whack-a-mole".
Last summer I had a strange episode when I lost most of my vision for about 15 seconds. Unfortunately this happened at the exact time a truck was backing out of a parking space. I only perceived movement, and pushed myself away from it, landing on the concrete. Ever since then I've been sensitive to light, especially bright light, outside, inside it doesn't matter. (I had a complete workup, nothing conclusive)
As I read through this and learn of others' reactions and strategies, I'm starting to think that age plays a role. We may have pre-existing sensitivities of sorts, startle responses, over stimulation, auditory sensitivities, which may have been masked or managed simply by sheer willpower, especially during working or child rearing years. Then when some of those external demands fall off, the old stuff "comes out to play" again.
When COVID hit, I found myself in bed in a dark room 12 hours a day. Liking it. That urge to cocoon was not evident before 2020. But it has hung on. It appears I'm making a case for acquired, by virtue of our common treatment and disrespect by "caregivers" which has a real potential to emerge later in life in full force.
Oh, yes! As I get older, I get more intolerant to what I call excess stimuli.
My partner often fidgets, which makes noises or vibrates the furniture (that I'm also sitting on) or various other things like that. It didn't bother me as much before as it has in the past few years.
Then again, I'm feeling somewhat abandoned by them in some ways (I wrote about it on my blog, which is not on this site), so I think my irritation at some of the unconscious things they do is magnified.
Regarding the visual blackout, have you ever been diagnosed with migraines? That is a terrifying, but not-too-uncommon, symptom of migraine. You don't have to have pain to have migraine!
Quote from: Fraying on October 08, 2023, 05:59:05 PMRegarding the visual blackout, have you ever been diagnosed with migraines?
As the kids say, DEF (as in definitely!) Decades. Plus, a couple instances of
ocular migraine which is some
scary stuff. All that seems to blur together now, as so many scary health things have happened.
I can relate to decreased tolerance for fidgeting, little annoyances and stimuli. My strategy of daily time out in a pitch black bedroom has been my ticket to sanity. For people "up there" in age, I think there is a decreased capacity to deal with what I'll call a Tipping Point along the stress continuum.
I've reached it. I used to joke with my cognitively impaired S and say, "If you remember your name, where you live and your phone, forget the rest of what you don't." It was meant to be reassuring, but not so funny anymore.
My ability to recall preferred words, how to spell those words and how to type has taken a hit. I believe this is due to our need to hold ourselves together for the day-to-day grind (shopping, laundry, housekeeping). We all have finite energy, brain cells and synapses. If we've lived life with less than full healthy brain capacity/development from cPTSD and developed our own dynamics, it follows that we would indeed notice the holes and lapses as we age.
It's worthwhile to have this conversation, get different viewpoints and really take in the fact that YES, we are neuro-diverse, but we are also the
strongest people on the planet. The key is acceptance.
Interesting, I get ocular migraines too although mine don't hurt, I just get blinking lights in one or both eyes for about 20 minutes and then they subside.
I also take a break midday in a dark bedroom with the fan running for white noise. I find I need that, look forward to it in fact and can do it because I'm retired. I think back to days when I worked and was raising a child and how stressed/ overwhelmed I was by evening. But like everyone, I had to carry on, push through and get things done so I just did it. Now before I reach the tipping point I take that lovely break and just feel so much better for it. Fortunately my H who led quite a busy, adventure filled life in the Army for four decades is happy to take things easier and enjoy quieter times.
I was just thinking that one benefit of having AQND is that because I was so attuned to everything around me that I was really good at paying attention to detail. The downside of course was and is that it can be overwhelming. Also, because I did not like any chaos I developed great organizational skills. The con to that is what seems chaotic to me may just be life happening and it's easier to go with the flow which I have difficulty with.
Quote from: Kizzie on October 09, 2023, 03:06:50 PMI also take a break midday in a dark bedroom with the fan running for white noise. I find I need that, look forward to it
WHEW! Good to know I have company! I'm glad your H is on board with the idea. This behavior has never been encouraged or accepted, either by myself or T. That's too bad, because it is really restorative. So, now I'm going to embrace it as
normal.Quote from: Kizzie on October 09, 2023, 03:06:50 PMI was just thinking that one benefit of having AQND is that because I was so attuned to everything around me that I was really good at paying attention to detail.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Being neurodiverse is not a bad thing. It has kept us alive. It's so powerful though, that we have to be extra careful to learn our limits and put our safety first.
Quote from: Lakelynn on October 09, 2023, 11:50:16 PMWHEW! Good to know I have company! I'm glad your H is on board with the idea. This behavior has never been encouraged or accepted, either by myself or T. That's too bad, because it is really restorative. So, now I'm going to embrace it as normal.
Heck yah, it is normal for us. Clinician's tend to be 'sensitive' to naps/breaks I think because it's related to depression and not being able to get out of bed or off the couch, not understanding complex trauma and the toll it takes on our nervous system and the need to calm and reset. That's why I think it's so important to spread the word about CT, our bodies and brains are different and require different care and attention IMO.
Someone I know posted a diagram of neurodiversity as an umbrella, and under the umbrella there was PTSD and CPTSD, trauma rewiresthe brain, does it not?
That's the latest talk according to my T Gromit, although I haven't seen a lot on this TBH. If you know where the infograph is I'd love to see it.
https://emergepediatrictherapy.com/autistic-masking/
Sorry Kizzie, I do not check this place enough. The info diagram comes from this site.
There are different ones, some include CPTSD and others do not.
G
I am fascinated by this subject and even if this discussion is no longer ongoing, to respond is helping me get things clearer. I apologise if this post is too long.
So, before I came to the realisation that I have C-PTSD (only a few months ago I let that really sink in), I used to think I was a 'highly sensitive person'. I still may be. And like many of you here, I have been wondering which came first, the highly sensitive part or the trauma response part. It's impossible to say in cases where traumatization starts at birth. Also, I read that sensitivity increases with age, no matter how your brain is wired.
(I also relate to some of the symptoms of Autism, but I know I don't have that. I do think some of the symptoms of C-PTSD might be mistaken for Autism, although the cause is very different.) Somehow though, I like being under the umbrella of the Neurodiverse, I actually advocated for ND a little bit. So what if we're different!
Some say that highly sensitive people are more prone to traumatisation. But that is very difficult to accept for me. Because it almost sounds like there was something wrong with us to begin with and there's NOT, only with what happened to us. I can't stress that enough. C-PTSD can only be acquired and what happened to many of us here would traumatise anybody I'm sure.
Anyway, hsp's get overstimulated in response to both external and internal triggers, and I think survivors of trauma experience the same. And we both may need to take extra care to calm the nervous system (I'm so happy about the quiet room at work!). To step out of an overstimulating situation is quite the challenge for me though. And what I did before - masking the stress response - does not allow the nervous system to complete the stress cycle and we get stuck in it.
But there IS a big difference however I'd say, between the hsp being overstimulated and the survivor feeling overwhelmed, the latter having a whole emotional world behind it which makes it all the more difficult. (To know about an EF has made all the difference to me!)
And with us survivors, it's perfectly logical we would be overstimulated sooner, because we are on high alert most of the time to begin with. We're wired that way. I have a huge startle response (I recently found out that an 'experience' for kids eight years old and over in an amusement park is too much for me).
The hsp-label helped me to feel 'normal' to some extent, and I wanted to be normal very badly. I was trying not to let anybody see how difficult things were for me (I'm done with that though). And I have been thinking whether I'm 'damaged' too. I certainly don't like that label. But at the same time, I do think it would be beneficial if I could accept 'the way I am'. (I think that's part of what I'm doing here.) But to accept this as a given, would also rule out the possibility of change and growth. And that's also what I'm here for. If it weren't for that prospect, I think many of us would have given up already (some sadly have I realise).
So here is where it gets interesting to me. I think we can - to some extent - rewire the brain. Because I totally rewired my brain already to not produce any of the physical symptoms anymore in response to repressed emotions. I used to have migraines, allergies, pain in my joints and back and overwhelming fatigues (and 'long-covid' too, which combines all of these). And for a long time, I did not know why. Until three years ago, I learned about MindBodySyndrome (Dr. Shubiner) and I learned to rewire my brain to stop producing these symptoms. This now means I have to actually deal with the feelings and emotions themselves and I will say this is hard, but I'm convinced it's better than before. And although I do not think we will be able to ever get rid of C-PTSD, I do think we can rewire some of it.
The neural pathways have highways and byways and the highways that we are wired with are not healthy for us anymore. And we can start making the more healthy byways into our highways. Or that's what I'm gonna try.
Personally, I don't find neurodivergency (or acquired neurodivergency) to be appropriate for CPTSD, at least not in my case. Of course, if others feel like it fits then by all means, go with it.
But to me personally, neurodivergency has a very heavy implication that it can't be cured, and that we should accept neurodivergent individuals as they are. When I think about that in the context of my trauma... That my years of abuse can't be undone, or that I should just accept that I'm going to have nightmares for the rest of my life... It leaves a massive sour taste in my mouth.
I know many folks with CPTSD do well in neurodivergent spaces (specifically autistic and ADHD spaces), but I don't. The culture is too... positive? Like, that it's okay to be suffering. I know that's not what they are actually preaching, but it's what it feels like to me. I don't relate to them at all and I don't find comfort in those spaces.
Personally, I'm fine with being called brain-damaged. It's harsh, it's vivid, it's violent - it's not covering up the harsh realities of my existence. It also implies that I was hurt, because I was - whereas neurodivergency implies it was an unlucky accident that couldn't have been avoided. My trauma was no accident, I was deliberately hurt and damaged, it could have been avoided. But I also appreciate that brain-damaged implies that I can be fixed, or at least helped in some way.
These are just my own perceptions on the topic. As I said before though, folks should use whatever terms fit them best - and if AQND works, then more power to you.
Regards,
Aphotic.
Wow Aphotic :stars: Thanks for the excellent reply.
This is heavy duty! What comes to mind are the many prejudices and misconceptions running amok in society about differences and how we want and don't want to be labeled. Each carries its own baggage and you've pointed out some of that.
I often stay away from in depth discussions, preferring to remain at surface level. Not that I can't engage more meaningfully, but that my own labels take up so much room that there's a hierarchy, and all my neuro stuff ends up in another "bucket." The deaf bucket, which has its own behaviors, habits and mindsets, leaves little room for anything else.
I came to a realization Friday when I discovered that Microsoft Outlook had strangely routed all mail for the last 5 weeks into my deleted folder. I went down the usual hole of "nobody cares, of course." And that led back to the injuries from childhood, having nobody care, at least enough to build confidence and trust.
So, I realized that whatever I/we are experiencing, (being heard, being seen, being here) creates a way of thinking and interacting which is very specific to our lives. Most people deny their abuse, laugh about it, minimize it and spend a lot of time and effort pretending. I embrace all efforts made to be real and find others that feel the same.
Aphotic and Lakelynn, thank you for your reflections. Interesting how this is about labels apparently and what they do for us.
Aphotic, I agree neurodiversity might be called an 'accident' and what happened to us should not be called that. And we shouldn't have to be okay with feeling rotten.
And Lakelynn, I like what you say about embracing who we are. I'm trying to do that more and more. I'm done pretending I'm alright when really I'm not. Owning what we feel may give us the agency and power to change and grow.
Quote from: Desert Flower on August 11, 2024, 07:10:08 PMOwning what we feel may give us the agency and power to change and grow.
Absolutely!!!!!
I have learned a lot from an account on Facebook called Trauma Geek. They also have a website: https://www.traumageek.com/
The information I've learned about neurodivergence and trauma from them is really helpful.
I am autistic and felt a bit "ouch" reading through some of the posts on this thread. Autism is highly pathologized and stigmatized and I hope that continues to shift and change because it doesn't need to be.
Thanks for the link to the TrauaGeek website rainy,
I'm looking forward to learning more. Every perspective helps to leave ignorance and prejudice behind.
I hope I haven't contributed to your "ouch." If I have, I'm sorry.
Lakelynn, I hope the Trauma Geek has information or perspective that is helpful.
What tends to feel "ouch" isn't anything one person says in particular. What feels "ouch" is a pattern of discourse that comes from a long standing (hurtful and incorrect) narrative about autism in particular. I used to say and do and see things really differently so don't blame any one for that.
I also felt a bit ouch for myself - I have learned a lot about the neurodiversity paradigm and yet encountered some very different perspectives here than I have before. It helps me learn.
Rainy, I read your post just before I got to work this morning and I couldn't reply any sooner, but it's been on my mind all day. I also really wanna say sorry if I hurt your feelings or contributed to it in any way. That certainly was not my intention. Especially when I know how labels can affect and hurt us when they're used in a careless way.
If anything, I have been trying to figure out who I am, how 'I' work so to speak for many years, and in my quest, I also stumbled onto neurodiversity and how that would or would not fit me. And I know how any label could be used against someone in a derogatory way. Autism, or any (neuro-)diversity, is stigmatized and in my honest opinion, it shouldn't be. Anyone deserves to be treated with respect, irrespective of how their brain works. Vive la difference! I will pay more attention to how I phrase things in the future. I hope you can accept my apologies.
Hi Desert Flower, It's ok. We all face a lot of suffering and we have imperfect ways of describing and understanding really complicated experiences.
Quote from: rainydiary on August 13, 2024, 12:49:32 PMLakelynn, I hope the Trauma Geek has information or perspective that is helpful.
I did rainy. There's a section on 4 things that attachment theory gets wrong. I found it amazingly
reassuring and I've been trying to figure out a way to post it.
Janae Elizabeth writes to clearly and well that I now want to read EVERYTHING. There are pieces that apply to me which have been confusing for a long time.
Lakelynn, I'm glad that you found some helpful reading. I like the way they explain things.
Just popping in quite late to the discussion but wanted to say I don't think ANDG is permanent actually. We do go to therapy to help in part to rewire our brains away from the amygdala hair trigger responses, emotional dysregulation and so on that plague us.
I think the word "acquired" is the key; what is acquired can be removed or reduced - same for being an HSP. I remember a line from Pete Walker suggesting that what is learned can be unlearned and I loved the thought of that. That's the promise and premise of therapy although I don't think treatment is quite there yet.
My money is on neuroplasticity research relating to trauma and I have a lot of hope that the professionals and researchers who deal with trauma will figure out better ways of basically retraining our brains, perhaps not in my lifetime but down the road. It's what my intuition tells me and my heart hopes for for all of us.