This is my first post and one of the things I am most struggling with right now. Discussion involves not being able to reconcile the two sides of my abusive mother.
Everywhere around me I see the goodness of my mother. A mailed box of Easter gifts, I'm wearing a shirt she bought me, she's in pictures hanging on my wall, she sends me texts about the charity work she's involved in. And yet, the other side of my mother is all around me, too. It's in my nightmares and flashbacks, my fears, my self-talk. I can't even call her an abuser--it just feels so wrong, even though what she's done to me repeatedly is awful (I've just recently truly accepted the reality of this). How could these two sides coexist? How can I reconcile both sides? How can she possibly be both this good and this awful at the same time? I'm able to reconcile the two sides of most people, those who've offended me but not traumatized me. It's different with my mother because the sides are so different. And she never acknowledges or seems to notice the awful side of herself.
I know my mother has undiagnosed and untreated mental illness, although she would never agree. I know she has her own trauma. I use these to excuse away her actions. And I think, if she can be so good on one hand, it must be me that brings out the monster.
Does anyone have any insight? Anyone else struggle with this? It is so hard to accept that my mother can contain all the good and evil I have experienced. I don't know how to accept it.
Hey littlebluejay :)
There have been plenty of times I wondered this. I mean, who was I to question the awful things when everyone else just sees the goodness?
In my experience the goodness wasn't real, at least it wasn't to me. I think it can be a mirage to simply be recognized by others for being so wonderful.
I'm sorry you're struggling with this right now.. it may also be because it's your mother, that its so different than with most people as far as reconciling it too.
I wish I had a good answer.. I thought my mother's mental illness was an excuse too for a long time...and I was just the unfortunate casualty, but that isn't how it works. You deserve(d) safety, caring, and love no matter what. I'm sorry that you're haven't. I hope you find some wonderful help here.. you deserve that too.
Hey littlebluejay, my mother sounds like yours and what I came to find out was her behaviour was typical of someone with covert narcissistic personality disorder.
She portrayed the good mother, wife, friend, etc but did so to garner attention of the "Isn't she a wonderful mother/wife/friend?" variety. I struggled with understanding and accepting she was abusive for many years, decades really until finally I was diagnosed with Complex PTSD and had to admit I had been abused.
Whether or not your M suffers from NPD, the fact is if you have Complex PTSD symptoms you were abused. They are common to relational trauma and the fact that they are common validates the fact that survivors respond in certain ways to survive abuse/neglect.
None of us want to be a part of this particular tribe but at least we have each other, we don't have to suffer alone.
:grouphug:
Hi littlebluejay. I love your name and have such a soft spot for birds.
I can relate to all of your post. My mom portrayed such a victim. I started to add "...that no know else can understand the evil that she did." Then I deleted that because I am as conflicted as you. My heart raced and my brain told me it wasn't evil she was just mentally ill. You (me) are bad and wrong etc. All that played out for me just in half a sentence.
Kizzie may be right on the covert NPD but my mom displayed similar traits but seems to better fit with BPD. Just mentioning in case NPD doesn't sound quite right to you. (My mom also was diagnosed with but never acknowledged bipolar disorder, along with it). I think the damage from BPD and NPD abuse are about the same.
Quote from: phil72 on April 28, 2022, 02:43:49 PM
Hey littlebluejay :)
There have been plenty of times I wondered this. I mean, who was I to question the awful things when everyone else just sees the goodness?
In my experience the goodness wasn't real, at least it wasn't to me. I think it can be a mirage to simply be recognized by others for being so wonderful.
I'm sorry you're struggling with this right now.. it may also be because it's your mother, that its so different than with most people as far as reconciling it too.
I wish I had a good answer.. I thought my mother's mental illness was an excuse too for a long time...and I was just the unfortunate casualty, but that isn't how it works. You deserve(d) safety, caring, and love no matter what. I'm sorry that you're haven't. I hope you find some wonderful help here.. you deserve that too.
You're right, I think the fact she is my mother is also keeping me from reconciling it, from truly accepting both sides. There is a tie to one's mother. An innate desire to please and even protect.
Thank you for your words. When I look back at little me I get so sad--how could she have denied me such safety? Now that I'm an adult I have been able to find my own community of support, including a figure that I consider more of a mom to me than my actual mom. But I still have those ties to my mother. And I want a relationship, just not like how it is.
This community here has already been so comforting. Thank you :)
Quote from: Kizzie on April 28, 2022, 03:41:20 PM
Hey littlebluejay, my mother sounds like yours and what I came to find out was her behaviour was typical of someone with covert narcissistic personality disorder.
She portrayed the good mother, wife, friend, etc but did so to garner attention of the "Isn't she a wonderful mother/wife/friend?" variety. I struggled with understanding and accepting she was abusive for many years, decades really until finally I was diagnosed with Complex PTSD and had to admit I had been abused.
Whether or not your M suffers from NPD, the fact is if you have Complex PTSD symptoms you were abused. They are common to relational trauma and the fact that they are common validates the fact that survivors respond in certain ways to survive abuse/neglect.
None of us want to be a part of this particular tribe but at least we have each other, we don't have to suffer alone.
:grouphug:
Thank you for this. The covert NPD sounds a lot like my mother. I've had two different therapists tell me over the past 4 years her behavior is abusive. It's maybe been 2 years that I've considered it. And it has been showing up in my symptoms since I was a child. I had a complete shutdown this weekend, turns out I was in an intense hypoarousal state and my body was trying to protect me. Thank you for that assurance... the fact I have these symptoms validates that I've walked through abuse and relational trauma. Even when my mind tries to convince me I've made it up and it's all in my head.
Thank you for your words, I'm already finding this community to be so helpful and comforting :)
Quote from: Armee on April 28, 2022, 06:00:36 PM
Hi littlebluejay. I love your name and have such a soft spot for birds.
I can relate to all of your post. My mom portrayed such a victim. I started to add "...that no know else can understand the evil that she did." Then I deleted that because I am as conflicted as you. My heart raced and my brain told me it wasn't evil she was just mentally ill. You (me) are bad and wrong etc. All that played out for me just in half a sentence.
Kizzie may be right on the covert NPD but my mom displayed similar traits but seems to better fit with BPD. Just mentioning in case NPD doesn't sound quite right to you. (My mom also was diagnosed with but never acknowledged bipolar disorder, along with it). I think the damage from BPD and NPD abuse are about the same.
Ugh, how I relate with all of this. I have all those same thoughts, and I question everything. My therapist today said that's the worst kind of abuse when you can see both the good and bad so clearly. When everyone around you goes on and on about how good the abuser is, but at home, they are a different person. My mom portrays to be such a victim, too. Whether that's in her marriage, her parenting (or lack thereof), etc. It's hard
not to feel sorry for her. I will look more into BPD too. My mom has never been diagnosed bipolar but I really think she is. I just think her mania presents more as out-of-control rage and this incessant desire to expose others/prove others wrong. There's probably a lot going on but I know she will never willingly be evaluated.
Thank you for sharing with me, I hate that you have gone through similar things and struggle with similar things, but I am so glad I'm not alone in these horrible thoughts.
And thank you for the compliment on my name. We had lots of bluejays around where I lived growing up. They were noisy but they were so funny and beautiful!
Those blue jays have tons of character. We have scrub jays here but I assume they are similar.
I am embarrassed to say I am quite lucky because my mom passed away last year so I am done with the torture. It's been a massive psychological and physical relief. Now I only have to navigate the condolences that trickle in when people learn of her passing. I have been pretty open but sometimes quite gracelessly in expressing my relief.
I hope you find a way for some relief or enough healing that it is bearable without attacking yourself.
Right now I'm sitting outside and there's a noisy baby titmouse bird chirping away at its parent.
Quote from: Armee on April 28, 2022, 08:40:35 PM
Those blue jays have tons of character. We have scrub jays here but I assume they are similar.
I am embarrassed to say I am quite lucky because my mom passed away last year so I am done with the torture. It's been a massive psychological and physical relief. Now I only have to navigate the condolences that trickle in when people learn of her passing. I have been pretty open but sometimes quite gracelessly in expressing my relief.
I hope you find a way for some relief or enough healing that it is bearable without attacking yourself.
Right now I'm sitting outside and there's a noisy baby titmouse bird chirping away at its parent.
I've thought about this a lot, the relief of what it'd feel like for it all to be over. I hate admitting that. But I really believe at this point my mother is not capable of change, so the only way out is for her to pass. Again, I hate admitting that. There's a lot I love about my mom too and I know I would miss those aspects a lot. It's very complicated. The following sentence is a trigger warning about a threat she often says to me concerning her own death, so skip this sentence if you don't want to read it-->> my mom will often tell me she is going to kill herself, or that she will die in a car crash while she's mad at me, and it is my fault and I would have to explain to my sisters why I killed my mom. And while she said this over and over this weekend, I quietly hoped for the day she would pass away.
<<End trigger warning. Ah, to be a noisy little bird who does not have such a complicated relationship with her parent! I got outside for a walk in the park today and saw some beautiful cardinals and sweet robins. Nature is so therapeutic.
I'm sorry. That is a horrible thing to go through. I went through similar. It's not ok. When we got to the point where I was single handedly providing her care through cancer and broken bones and then hospice care, my mom's self harm shifted to self neglect as a form of the same manipulation, except then I was also viewed by doctors as responsible. It was a complete retriggering of the suicide threats and self harm and feeling responsible for her staying alive as a kid. It was a terrible trap and I wished many many times that I had seen the damage being done to me and my family and cut ties before she was frail and ill.
Others here have read this before but I'm going to say it here too, so you don't feel alone in those thoughts. There was a point when my mom was hospitalized due to septic shock from chemo toxicity. I was really sad she was there and alone, it was over the holidays and during COVID. I believed she would not ever leave the hospital and that she would quickly die there. I felt sad about that but didn't cry. I NEVER cry. But after a few days my sister called to say she had talked to doctors and that good news! Mom was going to live! I sobbed that entire day. I don't think I've ever cried so hard. I was not crying in relief. I was grief stricken that it wasn't over yet. Up until that point I defined myself as being a kind person and that took a lot of support to be able to integrate that awful grief with who I thought I was. But that is what people like our moms do to us. They manipulate our kindness until we are the bad and mean ones. It's really terrible psychological abuse and is severely damaging.
My heart hurts knowing what you are going through.
Hi Armee, I am both filled with grief and with relief hearing how you relate with me. I feel so much shame for wanting things to end. I've often thought about that with my mom... when she's old will I care for her? She has medical issues and I've spent many many nights in the hospital with her, caring for her after surgery, etc. She is not close to dying though. I don't think I will have the capability to care for her on a long-term basis, but what does that say about me? What would others say if I send her to a nursing facility?
I am so, so sorry to hear about what you went through when your mom lived. It doesn't say anything about your kindness though. I also think of myself as a kind person but I feel like there is this other part of me when it comes to my mom. I still treat her very nice but I have so much anger. It's interesting, I rarely cry. I used to never cry too but the last couple years I've started to sometimes.
Thank you for your honesty, for making me feel less alone. I really cherish it
Hey littlebluejay,
I'm sorry to hear about your struggles. It's an enormous one to tackle..
When I first heard about NPD, I had already somehow managed to come to terms with the fact that it was healthier if my mother and I did not communicate. I still couldn't fully accept how well the pieces fit together.. I had such a low opinion of myself because of how she had raised me, I don't think I'd fully seen the problem with how she treated me, more so with how I reacted to her and around her. It was in thinking about how she treated others, and how those I cared about had suffered because of her, that I was finally able to accept what'd been staring me in the face.
As I started seeing improvement by addressing hardships I was facing from the perspective of someone having suffered abuse from a narcissistic parent, I became more and more comfortable calling the kettle black.. In the end, whether she ever receives diagnosis or care for herself, I have managed to accept that if it helps me improve, I feel more comfortable acknowledging this genuinely. At first, I had a hard time because I felt like it was seen as disrespectful toward her. Now, I feel like it's far more kind and respectful to approach things with honesty.. If something I've learned can ever help someone else, I think it's worth being seen as the villain in some folk's stories. Frankly, that will always be the case, anyway. Something good may as well have the chance to come from it, I guess.
I'm sorry I can't provide the one and only answer, and there may not ever be such a simple solution. If any of this helps add to your own pool of knowledge to draw something positive from, I hope you can. My kindest thoughts are with you. Take care.
Oh, wow, did this resonate with me!
*trigger warning - mention of violence*
I remember talking to my therapist about how the two most vivid memories I have of my father are;
1. How he used to read me "the giraffe and the pelly and me" by Roald Dahl. He would sit on the edge of my bed whilst I snuggled under the duvet, all warm and cosy in my pyjamas, and put on a different voice for each of the characters. It is by far my best memory of him.
2. I remember how he ran my mother down in his car, just outside of my grandmothers house, after bundling my brothers into his car and trying to take me too. I went with my mother to our neighbours (retired nurse) afterwards and watched them stitch up her arm that had been gashed open when she hit the ground. It is a strange, dissociated memory, but I understand now just how horrific it truly is.
I still grapple with the reality that one man was capable of both of those things.
For me personally, I have come to the realisation that my father was, in reality, a very bad man. It is harder to deal with those same feelings when it comes to my mother.
I think because my mother's abuse and neglect was aimed at me (and because I understand how she was also a victim of abuse and can relate to her experience as more than likely being PTSD or CPTSD too) it is harder to be objective.
Some days I actively hate my mother. Other days I grieve over the loss of the mother-daughter relationship that I never had. Other days still I feel she did the best she could, given all that she had been through herself.
I think that by understanding she was so traumatised herself, and was therefore incapable of being a good enough mother, I have been able to let go of a little of the shame that I carry around. It wasn't my fault that she was traumatised long before my birth, therefore it wasn't my fault that she couldn't love and protect me because she didn't even know how to love and protect herself.
I have been no contact with her for 14 years. I still believe if I were to contact her and try to talk about the abuse and neglect she would deny it all. I believe that she has to deny it because it is too painful for her to accept what happened to me. If she were to accept that, then she would have to accept that she failed to protect me and then her own toxic shame would be too much for her to bear.
Perhaps that is also true for your mother. Perhaps not. But this is the truth that I have found in my own experience.
Even if this doesn't resonate with you, maybe it will give you hope that you will find your own truth.
Wishing you happiness and healing.
I understand your struggle. This was a huge catalyst for me, in regard to a different person, but someone I have an ongoing relationship with now, but also had to (and am still learning to) accept as reality my past experiences. When I first started honestly acknowledging to myself things that had occurred, and talking about them with my therapist, I internally freaked out and wanted to stop therapy all together. Talking with my sister, I realized it's not entirely uncommon to create an "ideal" parent, and to cling to that ideal, even when reality contradicts it. For me, coming to terms with the reality felt like a huge loss that I needed to grieve. What really helped me was "parts work" as I was able to acknowledge the parts of me that saw/experienced this individual in different ways without feeling like I was betraying the person. And like you shared, one of the things that made this more challenging is that I understood the whys behind the harmful behavior, and in many ways saw (and still do) this individual as a child. (Emotionally, this person very much is a child, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way.) I don't know if this is helpful; all that to say, I can understand your struggle.
- possible trigger warning -
Dear all,
This topic has not been posted in for a while but it just resonates so much with me I'd still like to respond anyway and see what happens. It has been so enormously difficult for me to reconcile the two sides of my mother. I think this may be the biggest issue for me.
Other parts of my experience, the sexual abuse (by someone else) and the loss/abondonment are so blatantly one sidedly wrong, that they're easier to process somehow. They are just clear and should be to anyone I talk to about them.
But this two-sided mother! Everyone just thinks she is so nice, so helpful, never thinking about herself, only others. And at the same time, she was just such a poor excuse for a mother. And I'm having so much trouble writing about that side of her, I feel so guilty, because she was doing her best (which was NOT good enough. She never did anything to protect me from the abuse that went on inside her house. She never wanted to know anything about my emotions. etc etc She got mad at ME when I got .....) And now she's old and the same thing that happened when I was small happened again: she lost her second husband, the way she lost her husband - my father - back then. And it was always about her losing her husband, never one word about us (me and my brother) losing our dad. And it was always about her not wanting to be alone. But what about us! And now she is alone again and she is all dependent again and now she sort of has a right to be so because she is old which puts me back into the position of having to make her feel not lonely - which I cannot do. Which I should not have to do, I see now. And which was a HUGE trigger for me these past months. So huge I didn't even see it. I just relived the whole thing. Just feeling totally inadequate. And she's too old now and fragile for me to ever bring any of this up. I'm still just trying to be the good girl. I feel so anxious around her. Not even sure part of me may love her still. Or crave the love she's never given me. And me feeling guilty about thinking the only way out of this is when she were to die. Makes me feel so bad.
Desert Flower, thanks for posting here. If it weren't for your post I would probably never have encountered this thread. It's funny how things on the forum can work serendipitously. I've just come from another thread where I wrote extensively about my mother's abusive and deeply insidious behavior. So reading through this thread I realized I related with so many aspects of everyone's experience here.
There are so many facets of the Janus Mother, that is to say, the mother with two faces...
I suffered the same guilt as you and others for years and years. It was only through reading, learning, and therapy that I was slowly able to put my mother in her proper place. It's not a quick process. I've known for decades my mother's behavior was toxic. Yet year after year I always reconnected with her, giving her another chance, so to speak.
For me, there was the proverbial last straw last summer. This came, once again, when I was expressing my emotions and needs, and my mother once again, violently interjected her own suffering putting it in priority and smothering what I was trying to express.
I was so shocked and dumbfounded in that moment. I simply couldn't believe she had done it again. Behind her mask of understanding and softness, lies a vindictive, manipulating and hateful person. It is clear to me now just how much she is suffering inside.
But I am not responsible for that. My mother did many good things for me. But that is what a mother is supposed to do. What she ended up taking from me, in the form of her devouring self-need, was highly toxic.
I beleive I was systematically emotionally-raped by my mother. She penetrated me with her needs, and forced me to provide her with emotional support. Though never stated, the implication, especially when I was very young, was the risk of losing her protection and love.
There were multiple real and specific events that I clearly remember and others in the family can confirm.
At multiple points in my life I have tried to discuss her behavior. It has never worked. She has either become hysterical, or denied my experience completely, usually both. As such I do not believe I can have any sort of a normal relationship with her. This makes me sad, but I no longer feel any guilt.
Included I now look forward to her death with a sense of release. I might visit her on her deathbed, but it I will not tell her I love her, because I don't. I respect the good things she did, but again that is what a parent is supposed to do. She never provided me with any deeper or profound connection, so I never really attached outside of toxic manipulative aspects.
I hope you and others can find ways to separate the inner critic's guilt tactics from the realities of what our mothers actually did. There is possibility of reconciliation, but this requires at minimum, Acknowledgement of our experiences. Validation and Apology is the ultimate. But it's rare I think.
So long as there is denial and refusal of at least Acknowledgement of our experiences, there can be no relationship, either before passing on, or after.
I've read a book recently called Believing Me, which is about the "untouchable mother" and put a lot of things into perspective for me about my m and gm's behaviour and neglect, and how I felt it was up to me to reconcile that because I was the "healthier" one. I really recommend it if you get a chance to read it.
Quote from: Chart on July 05, 2024, 08:52:41 PMMy mother did many good things for me. But that is what a mother is supposed to do. What she ended up taking from me, in the form of her devouring self-need, was highly toxic.
This whole thread resonates, and this quote in particular. My mother simply had to love me because she did all these things for me. Same for my father. It took my therapist to point out that my parents did their legal duty. Of course some parents don't even do that. Mine did it and arguably went further because they provided things that were nicer than the bare necessities. Evidence, I supposed for decades, of their love. I now realise a large part of it was community appearances. They moved in certain circles, and as such there were social expectations of what they might provide for their children. Of course such a statement makes me sound hugely ungrateful - this aspect, too, feeds into the guilt and confusion. Plus there is the fact that I believe my parents did do their best. They were simply not capable of more. My mother has a traumatic background. So I can understand logically why she is how she is. Emotionally I find it hard to understand, let alone accept.
In terms of my mother having two sides - that has also been very difficult. Everyone thinks she is marvellous (until they discover otherwise). She can appear very caring and generous. I have been enforcing boundaries and moving emotionally even further from her in recent months. She has noticed this and is being nice to me at the moment. In the past I would fall for this. What I have recently realised, however, is that her being nice is not really a side of her. Rather, it is a mask she puts on. Her behaviour towards me is currently the same as that she might put on for the ladies in church. It looks good and caring but is superficial. She now noticeably remembers to ask after my wellbeing (I have been very ill). Before I was ill she would ask how I am at the very end of a conversation. It felt like she had a tick box but was asking at the end because she wanted to make sure she got all her things said. Now she often asks at the beginning. It still feels like a tick box but my condition has been major enough that anyone would ask first about it before moving the conversation on. So she is doing that.
Framing her niceness as a mask rather than an integral part of her has helped me protect myself from being sucked back in.
Yeah, ditto Narco.., Since my daughter went into the hospital last week I've been "forced" to keep my parents posted on her condition. My mother who has sensed my distance thesypast few months and has jumped on the occasion of my daughter's illness to send me nice-nice emails.
Never once of her own initiative has my mother ever contacted me to apologize for her past behavior. She cannot and will not see that. Ever. My mother has no courage. I've taken other qualities from her that I deem positive and good. But the negative I leave with her. Sadly I think she'll take them to her grave.
Thank you so much, everyone, for your replies and comments. They make me feel so much less crazy and bad. It's such a relief to me to have the courage to actually write these things and hear back from you with so much support and understanding. I've got so much to say suddenly.
Quote from: NarcKiddo on July 06, 2024, 11:48:42 AMMine did it and arguably went further because they provided things that were nicer than the bare necessities.
Same here NarcKiddo. And then, after we'd been out to buy clothes, she'd say something like "That looks nice on you" instead of ever saying she liked
me.
Sorry to hear you've been ill Narckiddo, I hope you get well soon. I was also quite ill for quite some time and my m would text me every day about my physical well-being (not my mental well-being of course). But it was like she wanted me to get better, so
she could feel better. Not for my sake, but hers.
And I sense now she wants to hear from me she was a good mother, but that's too much to ask. I won't go that far because it would not be fair to me at all.
And it only just dawned on me that me fleeing from my home town at 18, was not so much a flight from the hypocritical neighbourhood, like I'd always thought, but a flight from
her hypocrisy. That's the part that made me feel crazy and bad.
Thanks also for the insights and affirming it was actually toxic. And I know it's my inner critic holding me hostage here, and although I'm not ready to divorce my m, I do know it would be better for me if I did.
'A mask' instead of 'her other side' is a helpful angle too Narckiddo, thank you.
Yes, she did her best (which was not enough). And she was poorly raised herself, I know. And
Quote from: AnnaMaria on December 12, 2023, 09:51:21 AMI believe that she has to deny it because it is too painful for her to accept what happened to me. If she were to accept that, then she would have to accept that she failed to protect me and then her own toxic shame would be too much for her to bear.
I also know she will never be able to acknowledge any of this, let alone apologize. I will just have to come to terms with that.
And her self neglect (and suicide threat) were there too, @Armee, making me responsible for her (wanting to) live somehow. It's still there. I don't think she actually wants to live. I cannot make her happy.
And there's something else I would like to share. It was something my m said the other day that made me so sad, but I now think I might actually take it as a compliment. What happened was, I was stupid enough (inner critic speaking here) to ask her whether my kids are any different from the way my brother and I were as kids. And what she answered was: well, you and your brother didn't ask for so much attention as your kids do (meaning my kids are asking for too much attention obviously). And what I felt at the time was: no we didn't ever ask for any attention, because we knew we would never get it. We stopped asking for anything before we could speak. And it hurt me so much realising that. But now I'm thinking, if our kids do ask for our attention, we must be doing something right as parents. Our kids actually know they can come to us with whatever they need and they know and trust we will try to help. I may not be able to change our past, but I'm surely doing my best not to repeat it.
:yeahthat:
I'm certain you're doing A LOT right for your kids DesertFlower. Sometimes our parents teach us very well through showing us what NOT to do.
Quote from: Chart on July 06, 2024, 03:19:48 PM:yeahthat:
I'm certain you're doing A LOT right for your kids DesertFlower. Sometimes our parents teach us very well through showing us what NOT to do.
Thank you Chart. I appreciate that. Thank you for your contribution too. Helped me see things clearer.
:hug:
Dear all,
this topic is very important for me, too, so I would like to contribute and comment on it.
Quote from: NarcKiddo on July 06, 2024, 11:48:42 AMPlus there is the fact that I believe my parents did do their best. They were simply not capable of more. My mother has a traumatic background. So I can understand logically why she is how she is. Emotionally I find it hard to understand, let alone accept.
This is an absolutely accurate formulation of what I am going through right now in terms of my relationship to my mom and that´s why it´s SO hard for me. I love and appreciate her much, but the fact that she was the only one who hurt me and also the dearest person in my life (still is, amongst my sisters), is making it very complicated.
I´m struggling with defining her attitude and exact "diagnosis", because I think she is not narcissistic and I think that because she acknowledged that she hurt us and caused a lot of harm with her parenting style and even apologized many times and said she will always feel bad about this, that she ruined our lives (which I don´t think she did, maybe caused problems and struggles, but I don´t see myself as ruined, but I get what she was trying to say there). So she is absolutely aware of the past and has changed a lot in the past few years. The problems start when sometimes she still behaves the wrong way (and I know how hard it is to change the bad habits and unlearn the patterns) and that triggers me because it reminds me of the bad times of my childhood. So that´s when it´s harder for me to appreciate the good things and the change she went through. :fallingbricks:
Quote from: Desert Flower on July 06, 2024, 02:42:52 PMno we didn't ever ask for any attention, because we knew we would never get it. We stopped asking for anything before we could speak. And it hurt me so much realising that
This resonates with me very much. I was also a kid who never asked for anything cause I felt that it´s just not that important as the other things my mom has to deal with day by day (my father passed away when I was four, my sisters six and eleven and my mom was pregnant with my younger sister). So I developed this trait called hyper-independence, which seemed like I´m an independent and strong kid who doesn´t need love and attention, so when my mom realized it, I got even less of it (I think my mom did that unconsciously - she even said it when we were talking about it recently; she told me that she knows she didn´t have much time for being present emotionally, because she had to "extinguish the bigger fire", which were the financial issues and the fact that our whole big family was absolutely not interested in helping a widow with four little kids in any way) and struggled more and more because of this vicious circle. It breaks my heart to know how lonely and hopeless I felt as a kid thinking I have no one by my side in the whole world.
So yes, relationship with the mothers is I think one of the hardest and most complicated of all and mine is no exception.
So I think this is where the concept of re-parenting comes in. I have to admit I hate this idea. For me it translates as "more difficult work".
But, once again, I have no choice. The neglect and abandonment by my biological father requires healing and the only thing I've found is Re-parenting.
As I am Low Contact with my mother, and can envision going No Contact, the same applies. Re-parenting regarding the wounds inflicted on me by my mother will have to be healed by me.
Ungh...
Yes, exactly, Chart. I think it was JamesG who wrote a recent piece in which he said something along the lines of: I have realised the cavalry I have been waiting to come over the hill is not coming because I am the cavalry.
And I've a three-legged horse...
Quote from: NarcKiddo on July 06, 2024, 11:48:42 AMThis whole thread resonates, and this quote in particular. My mother simply had to love me because she did all these things for me. Same for my father. It took my therapist to point out that my parents did their legal duty.
Ditto this.
Quote from: Desert Flower on July 06, 2024, 02:42:52 PMBut now I'm thinking, if our kids do ask for our attention, we must be doing something right as parents. Our kids actually know they can come to us with whatever they need and they know and trust we will try to help. I may not be able to change our past, but I'm surely doing my best not to repeat it.
An excellent point. Children are dependable by their very nature. They need nurturing and guidance, and it is only natural that they ask for attention and receive it. Otherwise they are left to navigate the world alone, without experience, without comfort...
Quote from: NarcKiddo on July 07, 2024, 04:08:56 PMI have realised the cavalry I have been waiting to come over the hill is not coming because I am the cavalry.
Reminds me of the scene in Harry Potter where Harry believes that his father saved him with a patronus charm, when it was actually Harry that saved himself. I realise the original sentiment is meant to be one of sadness and grief, but I can also sense a hint of self-empowerment... that we are strong and capable of more than we realise. Just grasping at the silver lining...
Both my parents had these two sides. It was actually impressive how well they managed to play the mask of a normal functioning married couple. Outside of the home, my parents were Church going Christians, had full-time jobs, plenty of friends, played in a Church band together - happy smiles all around. But at home... they ignored and neglected their children, emotional and physical abusers, constantly fought with one another. They'd fight in the car parked in the carpark, and as soon as they opened the car doors to get out and greet people, it was like a switch flicked in their heads - "act normal", and immediately they did.
Regards,
Aphotic.
There is so much on this thread, my brain, memory and emotions are spinning. Can't talk about it or share. Too much pain! But you all need to know it matters! Thank you for sharing. You're amazing that you've gotten far enough to say these words. Some day I will too
I agree you will Stillost.
:hug:
It's not easy for me to be saying these words Stillost. Saying them makes it real somehow. And also, after I say them, I cannot go back so to speak.
I'm sure you will find some words you need to say Stillost and that will relieve you. Your being here is such an enormous step already. You are on your way.
All of you. Thanks for giving words to this. Or saying it is too hard to give words.
I struggled with this in my journal. Then bumped into this topic. My family had these two sides. My ex had too. It was the hardest thing to deal with. And still. I can see when they fake it. But I think often both parts are real. They broke.
What I hate most, is that I could not break the cycle. I went no contact with my ex nearly immediately after giving birth. Too late. I had to fight the entire system. For years. Him, my family, his family, CPS, the courts. Everyone wanted to force a sociopath into our lives. Until I had barely anything left to give to my kid. And could not protect him from my family's troubles. I begged for help everywhere. Nobody wanted to believe me. Because they too, did not believe these sweet people hid a dark side.
But I also showed my child two sides. I never hurt him on purpose, like my parents did to me. But he saw my grief and panic and anger at my dad. To whom I am also double myself. To meet his doubleness. I screamed at him to stop abusing us. Only now I learned to stay outwardly calm under everything. I hate that my kid saw this. He too has a mother with two sides. Even if the terrified side came into being over fighting for his safety.
I am most angry at my ex and parents over this. That their refusal to take accountability, shoved their dark parts unto me. So that I too could not be there for my child, as I wanted and he deserved. I also hate myself for this. We have good times too. But sometimes it feels like the only thing I can give him is to say sorry...on my own account and that of all the rest. Tomorrow I - again - tell the whole story of our two sided family to CPS. In the hopes my kid gets the help with this I never had. I hope he heals, as we could not.
This resonates very strongly with me Mathilde, the stuff you write about having the two sides yourself and your kid. That's really hard and it's not what we want at all. I feel very guilty myself about my kids having to experience the two sides of me. One thats relaxed and being able to love them and another anxious side, closing me up and making me jumpy and angry at everyone sometimes. Really hard. But I do believe we are on our way to doing things differently than what we had to experience ourselves and making things better. It will not be perfect, but it will be better.
Thank you. For the recognition. I'm sorry you too struggle with this. I suspect every parent, especially from a highly traumatised family, struggles with this. I hope our kids see that at least we tried to do things better. This is what I missed in my family: a simple "sorry, we weren't perfect".
I had to bear the family trauma of my ex...that was a whole lot worse than mine. I think it is easy to see what cycles we did not break. But my ex would have been extremely abusive to our son. I broke the worst family cycle at least. :blink:
That's a big thing you did for your son Mathilde! Huge in fact.
Acknowledgement and recognition... THAT is what we can do for our kids. And narcissists and abusers CANNOT. I know I did bad things, but I can remember them and admit to them. I've apologized and will continue to acknowledge the things that happened. My kids know that they can talk to me about these things (well two of them do...) Everything is relative and we don't know the future, but staying open to my kids is something that is only going to get stronger and easier as I heal. Honesty means hope, and kids can understand and intuitively know this even when things are confusing and bad.
Thank you to everyone who has posted here, and a particular thank you to Chart for writing on this today, which led me to see and read the thread. I too have been grappling with mixed emotions about my mother. On one hand, she had a tough childhood and then a long and extremely abusive relationship with my father, which damaged her mental health. I understand that he destroyed her to such an extent that she wasn't able to protect either of us from his abuse, and I have huge sympathy for all that she suffered, to the point where she used to try to kill herself when I was little.
I also understand from my T that her narcissism in the decades since then is likely to have been a response to the trauma she experienced.
But on the other hand, I hold enormous anger that she didn't keep me safe, and that if she had been successful in any of her suicide attempts, she would have left me and my brothers and sister in the sole care of a monster.
I also don't like the way that she'll talk at me for hours about how much she cares about all the people around her - her neighbours, her neighbours' relations, strangers in shops, etc, but despite the frequent phone calls, she'll often go for half a year or more without asking me how I am.
As the years go by, I've been finding it increasingly hard to be around her, and hating myself for it because I feel like none of it is her fault. Our relationship became more and more strained as we both felt more and more tense spending time together. After a lot of soul-searching, I decided when I last visited her to try to open up a little bit about my childhood experiences and the ongoing effects of them, in the hope that she might understand why I'm often so stressed when we're together. I expected her to deny my suffering (she had previously told me and my brother that situations we both remember clearly didn't happen) but it still felt important to say something.
She stopped me soon after I started, said "Well at least you weren't married to him for 35 years", and walked away. It felt as if she had suffered so much by being married to a man who was violent, sadistic, a paedophile and matched the characteristics of a psychopath, that there was no space for anyone else to have also gone through *. I believe that for her own mental health she may have to block that out. I imagine otherwise the guilt of acknowledging what she let happen would be overwhelming.
I've reduced contact with her over the last few years but can't bring myself to end it completely, as much as I'd love that. She's coming to visit me and my son tomorrow for a few days, and I think that keeping in mind that others on this forum have similar conflicted feelings about their mothers and look forward in a way to possible relief/release when their mother no longer exists, might help me get through it.
I believe that narcissists suffer and certainly they suffer terribly. But people who ask for forgiveness and see "reality" as it truly is (or as close as we can try to get) are so much easier to forgive and connect with. You can construct your own prison, but please, afterwards, don't complain that I can't get in, or I refuse to come visit, or anything else that is simply not true. There is nothing to be done from determined denial... except walk away. Subsequently, not looking back can become the saddest thing we know for a long long time. It sucks.