Out of the Storm

Trigger warning in general. I don't think anything graphic will be involved as I have close to zero memory from the childhood, but the language I use to describe the current feelings and some ideation may be triggering.

I started this post because I don't want to spam the board. I'll try to not delete the posts the second I made it. I hope it to be a recovery even though I'm not sure where I am now. There are a thousand questions rolling around my mind since the day I found the term cptsd, and it is like a ranch I pulled to direct my path to an unexpected direction.

I guess I will start with the 4F responses. After reading Pete Walker's book and talking to my T, I realize I cannot actually find my position. On the surface, I clicked with the description of flight (workaholic and shamefully proud of it) and fawn (please people out of fear) first, but I think fight is deep down in me and I am so very scared of that part of me that I use all the other responses to push it back and silence it. My T also suggested dissociation when I described some of my EF's. I felt I was doing some kind of role play all the time and switching between different characters uncontrollably but knowingly. It's almost as if I managed to separate my 4F response into four different personalities; I used to call them: angry man, aloof bystander, crying baby, spineless clown and vicious voice.

-- TW (language) --

Vicious voice is my IC. I often project it to have other people's face, voice and behavior, ranging from past abuser to a stranger on the street to even my current friend, the only thing that doesn't change is that the poisoned and electrocuted feeling it injects in me, and I will beg it until it leaves me alone after it thinks I have suffered enough. "For now", it will say. The best (sarcastic) part is that IC has convinced me that it is the only true friend I have. "You won't be where you are if not for me. You are lazy, stupid and ugly, the only reason that you have a spot to stand is because I have been pushing you to show you are of some kind of use. You will lose your place the second you stop listening to me and slack off." And every time I fear being abandoned by real people in life, IC will wander back and pretend it is hugging me from behind. "Now you see that I'm the only one you have. People leave you behind even when they promise they won't; they almost never remember their words even though they meant it the moment they said it. But I'm unlike them; I'm not going anywhere, and I only wish the best for you." So I hugged the voice back. I said, ok, lead me where I should be, do whatever you want with me. And the same pain came back, but at least it felt familiar and unchanged.

-- TW ends --

I've been rejecting IC since I know this is its name. I refuse to listen to it, and it got rampant fast. Instead of saying things next to my ears, it just keeps pumping fear. I'm constantly on an adrenaline rush, sweating and having sight blurred out. I fall back to the flight routine by working and working and only having time to sleep and eat, and still can't have the simplest task done. I thought I was going blind when I got so exhausted that I felt detached from my body. And I started crying, fearing that I won't finish up my work and will lose my position soon.

But even this, the exhaustion and fearful anticipation, are still better than the night, when I can't sleep and keep thinking how many choices I made were driven by the illogical fear and unnecessary defense; how I pushed people away even though I wished they could stay; how I truly have nothing in me and so afraid that eventually everyone will find out there is just a hollow core under my skin; that the only thing that can distinguish me from the others is this nothingness. Everyone else is colorful, melodic and lively; I'm colorless, mute, and merely undead.

I wonder what the end goal should be and looks like. I don't think I can recover the me before I was molded into this discordant shape. I was locked outside the sea of people the day I was born. I said, I love you, and please love me back, and the voice was so weak, and I don't even believe it came out of me, because I was never that brave to say it loud. I daydream that I am an alien, and one day other aliens will find me and ask me to go with them. When that day comes, I will pretend to be hesitant first but I will jump onboard quickly.

Should I try to be human again? Can I be human again? Like the ones that laugh and cry and dance and sing, the ones that don't need to pass any test or go through any redemption to breathe, to live, to love and be loved. Or will it be easier to just accept that it will never happen, that I will never be connected with anyone, to understand and be understood in a mutual way? Will it be easier to accept the condition as a terminal disease, and just move through life as it is? After all, isn't pain the only thing that proves I exist?

camille,

yes, that little baby voice was weak, but it was there.  your spirit and will to live were there.  your humanness was there as well.  unfortunately, as with so many of us, your voice, the voice of your 'self', was drowned out and buried by voices that were bigger and stronger than our own.

however, i don't believe it was completely stilled - it still lives, even tho it may be impossible right now to hear it or believe in it.  i do believe that's what recovery is all about - recovering our true selves from under the rubble that was piled on top of us by too many to recount.

thank you for sharing this with us.  even if you don't know it, you are a beautiful being who deserves to be loved into your own personhood without threats, put-downs, or untruths.  the voice of that ICr will leave you when your truth becomes stronger.  as you continue with recovery, i have no doubt you'll feel the difference.

this is not an easy path you've chosen, but it is do-able.  you're not alone with this, either.  standing with you, camille.  sending you a hug (if you want it) filled with kindness, caring, and nurturing.

Camille 13512, you said "I truly have nothing in me and so afraid that eventually everyone will find out there is just a hollow core under my skin..."

I hope I'm included in "everyone". And if I am, I see in your posts that you are a strong person who not only deserves, but will likely find a way through the current despair. I've been in the dark place you describe many, many times. Despite trying to guard against falling again, it happens all the time and I want to give up. The ever-vigilant ICr will try and rush in, over and over.n. Sometimes I can't get any traction. I know it's frustrating to keep hearing about patience and fortitude, but it's only by latching onto those traits that I've progressed at all. And, perhaps a willingness to be surprised, as it couldn't really get much worse.

You wondered about acceptance; it doesn't mean giving in to life continuing like it's been so far, but is more like a middle point, where the old path ends and from there a path leads to the always new horizon. It may not seem like it but from here it looks like you've turned a corner just by expressing yourself here. Because here you can at least experience a place to freely speak from the heart without fear of judgement.

Your last paragraph was a precise description of what this journey feels like. It might be hard to sense any recovery, but it seems to happen regardless for those who can draw on inner strength to keep moving forward. The other day I was listening to a talk by someone who used a famous quote about failing; I'm paraphrasing, but the message ran something like you will fail--try again; fail--try again; and again and again. Not blindly--but because it's obvious you deserve the right to turn the corner, and finally your own core is bursting free.

You started that last paragraph by asking "Should I try to be human again?" You are a wonderful human already, now--in this very moment. Those others that seem to have it all together aren't necessarily the best role models for how to live. It may be they're lacking the depth and courage to really look at life, as you are now doing by reaching out.

:hug:   

sanmagic7, I'm trying really hard to not cry over your assurance. I am very aware of the little voice inside me; it sometimes burns to remind me that it is still there, alive and waiting to be acknowledged. I am aware, and I am the one that has been trying to kill it over the past years. My IC is strong and dominant because I've been enabling it; I believe what it says. What if my true self deserves to be eliminated? What if it is truly hideous and evil? I would prefer a hollow straw to that kind of "self", no matter how true it might be.

woodsgnome, "it couldn't really get much worse" is what makes me hold on most of the time. I'm hoping that this is the bottom already, that I won't keep falling.

But I will be lying if I say that I don't believe even a little bit of what both of you are trying to convey. I want to believe that there is something nice inside me, that shows my IC could be wrong. I hug you back with all the warmth I can gather.

I think I am pretty good at pretending to be a human being. Because other humans talk to me, smile at me, greet me, offer to help me, when they know close to nothing about me. They would actually approach me without showing much contempt when it is just an image of me in front of them. There is clearly something wrong with me, because people withdrew from my life whenever they knew more about me. So I think whatever truth I revealed about myself, no matter how trivial it might be, must be scarily ugly and revolting that pushes the others away instantaneously. And so many times I wish that this something, the sick part of me could be more visible, so that I know clearly what it is, and nobody would even bother to approach me at the first place.

This is why I am co-dependent on my IC. I believe everything it says about me. If I have any identity at this stage, if I have to recognize myself with anything, it will be my IC. It could be wrong (and I refuse to believe so), but it keeps its promise: it never leaves me alone. And though it is as pathetic as it gets, I give it all I have to just have it not abandon me too. I stump on my self-esteem for it, I curse myself with it, I silently wait (even wish) for the external world to crush me as it enjoys the show and laughs, as long as it stays. It enjoys my pain; I rely on its accompany to breathe.

After almost a week of rejection of IC, today I fully embraced it back. I am ashamed of myself, but it is one of those days I simply cannot hold myself up. "It's not like it's anything new; being disappointing is pretty much the only thing you are good at."

Quote from: camille13512 on November 14, 2017, 09:57:53 PM
There is clearly something wrong with me, because people withdrew from my life whenever they knew more about me. So I think whatever truth I revealed about myself, no matter how trivial it might be, must be scarily ugly and revolting that pushes the others away instantaneously.

Camille, I have also had this experience of people who got close to me being scared off. In hindsight, this was mostly due to my social skills not being great, and bc at that time I was looking for unhealthy relationships. What really helped me was reading a book about managing my emotions so that I didn't take them out on others (Constructive Wallowing by Tina Gilbertson), and also reading a book about relationships and healthy attachment (Hold me Tight as an audiobook by Sue Johnson - it really helped to hear the compassion in her voice that at first made me uncomfortable bc I thought it wasn't ok for me, but of course it was).

Whatever it is that is causing you problmes, I hope that you know that it is fixable, and you will find people who are capable of accepting you and your past and present as is. There's no need to be so hard on yourself because its completely understandable to struggle with this.

Quote from: camille13512 on November 14, 2017, 09:57:53 PMI stump on my self-esteem for it, I curse myself with it, I silently wait (even wish) for the external world to crush me as it enjoys the show and laughs, as long as it stays. It enjoys my pain; I rely on its accompany to breathe.

This sentence makes me so sad! You deserve so much compassion. Not having/losing a sense of self is something that (from my reading) I've gathered can happen with cptsd. It has happened to me, and it was terrifying and incredibly difficult to bear, but I believe that you will get through this. You have been so tough to make it this far. Don't give up! 

camille, i give you so much credit, sweetie, for holding that IC at bay for an entire week!  that is quite an accomplishment.  what a courageous thing to do.  it's no shame, no failure, to bring it back.  it's what has drowned out that voice that you were born with, the voice of the innocent, precious baby.  that baby only deserves love, caring, nurturance and kindness.  it's not the baby's fault that it's voice got stomped on.

neither is it your fault that you've embraced that IC again.  it's what you've known most of your life.  your true you, your 'self', is, in actuality that baby's voice that would not be stilled, that hasn't left you, either.  you just weren't given much of a chance to know you, the real you, before those other, larger and stronger voices tried to silence you.

but, they weren't quite successful, were they.  that little voice is still there, still with you.  it hasn't left you, either, and you've shown that you are fighting for it to get stronger.  an entire week.  that was a tremendous start.  well done.

it's not you who stomps on that little voice, it's all the others who trained you to do that.  this is not your fault, it's theirs.  they trained and programmed you so well.  we can all relate.  but the shame and blame is on them, not you.

sending you a big hug filled with encouragement, compassion, and love.  that's the kind of stuff that will feed that little voice and help it grow, help it become stronger.  it has never left you, either, and won't.  they didn't silence it. 

Hopeful, Thank you for the recommendation of books. I am checking them out. I do wish I am fixable, every part of me. As a "beginner" in learning to deal with myself the first time in my life, I believe I am slowly walking through the paths that are paved by many of you, and I feel the gratitude jar is being filled a bit more everyday. Hopefully, one day, I can add a part of myself in that jar too.

San, why is it that your words always make my tears flow (in a both unfamiliar but somehow nostalgic way)? I never thought about it this way. I never thought that the baby is with me too. I'm so busy with the IC that I feel blinded much of my life; I thought I always only had one voice to listen to, one road to follow. But maybe you are right, maybe I am not alone like the IC wants me to believe. How I wish I could go back to when I was three, and tell that little girl to never listen to that voice. I'm hugging you back, and I think the child in my is hugging you back too.

I'm afraid there is not much improvement I can note after last time's downing rant. I have not made much progress the past few days. IC enters the horrifying mode, and I cannot get out of fawning. I constantly told myself to not think about it, not think about it in the old way. But old habits are so hard to pass by. If I do not whip myself internally, I feel even more shamed than I already am.

--TW for language--
(The following paragraphs have been edited to remove details and will show inconsistency. I'm deeply sorry that I put it up and then took it down like this. )
During all the past time when I felt helpless, I forced myself to accept the reason to be "because there is no one there", "because people don't help each other, especially little kids", "because you are a bad kid who needs to be disciplined", "because you are such a coward who doesn't even dare to speak up so of course no one will know and help", and "because it is your fault; it always is".
-- TW ends --

But now I know a part of those answers are not true. There are people there; there are people who help each other because they genuinely care. So what is the truth? Is the other part true? Is it because I didn't ask for help so I didn't get any? Maybe that is indeed what happened? But at that moment, I felt so much bitterness soaring up my throat that I had to go back to the toilet stall again. It makes me want to cleanse my inside out if only I could. And at the mean time, I cannot get rid of the feeling about how much isolation I feel even when I am among a group of people who are working towards the same goal. I am this floating balloon that does not have a string tying to anything. And I panic that I will soon disappear into vacuum, into a space no one knows about. This immediately triggers fawning, and fawning always attracts the IC the most.
--Edit ends--

I keep shouting "stop" at IC and it doesn't really work much. And I suppose this disgust and littleness I feel is just another EF I failed to fight against. I desperately search for a distraction. I think I will cry until I can't and hopefully fall asleep afterwards. Nowadays the thing I look forward to the most when I open my eyes are the night time when I can cry under my blanket. At least at that moment, I feel crying is allowed, and a little bit free from the fake smile I carried in the days.

Initially I was hoping to sort through my feelings in the journal, and I guess it doesn't really work that way. I wish I could put thoughts into terms and go through the things that messed up my mind step by step, but sorting a mind is different from sorting a room. I wish next time, I can say something nice and uplifting. To the little baby in me, sorry I still cannot hear you, but I wish you a good night.

This is poignant and beautifully expressed.

That IC is something we all seem to struggle against. At the risk of repeating myself, may I suggest Pete Walker's input in fighting to reduce the Inner Critic - http://pete-walker.com/shrinkingInnerCritic.htm

Good luck to you in your struggle.  :hug:

Hi Camille,

I think you're brave and very sharp in your observations. Keep going, keep writing here even if things seem like they aren't coherent yet to you, in my personal experience just verbalizing stuff helps my mind make sense of them and look at them in new ways. Connect them to things that never would have occurred to me before. The mind wants to sort things out but its techniques are different from what we might expect, because it's a problem solving machine and it has so many different points of view on each thing it experiences... so it's two steps forward and 4985739 steps back.
But as long as you can look back and see you're slowly going those two steps forward then you're doing an excellent job.
If I can help you at it then it'd be my pleasure.

Boy do I relate to what you wrote about being pretty good at pretending to be a human being. I absolutely feel that way too.

Those terrible ideas, that voice in your head that says "It's all because you're worthless and you know it." I've recently been shocked by something I heard about my FOO. I've habitually been criticizing people about a habit of theirs all my life, kept saying to myself "but it isn't typical of me, why do I do that? Beh..." and it turned out what I had been saying was, word for word, a cruel thing my FOO used to say on a regular basis. I was really stunned. Got me wondering whether most or all of my IC are also things that I had heard, not just exposed to but are alien to me, things I took on but hurt not just because they cause me pain and torture me, but also hurt because they just don't fit our values. Our own values say to be kind.

One moment at a time, I'm with you. You're not alone.

dear camille, wish i could say more, but am in a bad place right now.  sending a hug of caring, warmth, and love. 

Three Roses, thank you for your encouragement. I am reading Pete Walker's book and found a lot of things he said make sense, but also hard to follow. One big problem is my (potentially fake or exaggerated) memory, the rest is a stubborn unwillingness in me to channel the anger out. I will keep trying. Nowadays when I feel utterly hopeless, I know it is not really me but an EF or IC, so I'll wait until it passed and then come back again. So I guess this is already an improvement.

Ah, I definitely agree with you that writing helps. In fact often when I feel trapped, writing is the only thing that gets me through those moments. When I say "only", it is not the "all or nothing" talk, but an honest opinion. I'm actually quite surprised by myself as I keep coming back and post in a public place without holding back, when in real life I'm a very private person and paranoid about internet privacy all the time. The journal here serves as "snapshots" of my emotions and resurfacing memories that I thought I had long lost, so I'm afraid it's going to be messy and probably getting messier soon. Thank you for staying by my side when it is difficult.

San, you don't need to say anything when you don't feel it. I know you are there. I'm sending you all the love I have. You have given me strength, so I wish to give you back some too. This darkness is scary, but we are not alone in this.

Edit: because I cannot stand myself. I'll leave the gist of it but delete the details and examples I gave.

A big wave has passed and here I am again. I still find it hard to admit that I was abused as a child (yes, I am stubborn), but I will put a trigger warning here before I post about my childhood just in case.

Pete Walker talks about letting anger out to shrink the IC. And unfortunately I am very reluctant to practice it, because I found it extremely hard to say, "hey, you, my abuser, you did this to me." I cannot do it because I know with a ninety percent certainty that the people who abused me were also the ones that were abused. It is a generation to generation cycled curse that has not been broken and been passed on (I saw it with my cousin and his baby). They have suffered enough, and I cannot bring myself to hate them. I know how it is going to sound (a victim with Stockholm Syndrome), but I am going to say it; I believe F and M's feelings for me are genuine and meant well; it did not work as well because they never learned how to love.

F is a narcissist. He may even fall into the "charming" category as Walker described: very friendly towards strangers or friends, but abusive toward family members (me and M). I do not have much memory about him since I was little. He was always busy, came home late and often drunk due to the toxic working environment. When he was at home, he would be very nice when he was in good mood, but would throw a tantrum when the mood switch was flipped. Occasionally when he remembered to check on me, such as my grades in school, he would throw "the look" described by Walker at me if he did not think I did well enough. He said that I "made him lose face in front of the others" because how low I scored.

Because F did not spend much time home and M is quite assertive, many decisions involving me were actually made by M. My relationship with M was also not quite conventional. Most of the time she treats me as an equal, and I am tremendously grateful for that attitude after I saw what happened to my classmates. The problem is, I think I would prefer to grow up as a child instead of an adult. I am always an easily startled child (talking about hyper-vigilance since age three). And I would tell M that I was scared (to do certain things). M's response was always that there was nothing to be afraid of, and it was irrational for me to cling to the fear without trying. And then the worst comment I received my life would follow:" you are truly your F's daughter to fear without even trying." "You are your F's daughter" is the trademark of my nightmare. Partially because I had first-hand experience with him, and partially because the obvious disgust M had when talking about his narcissistic manner. I suspected that a large portion of M's education on me is to prevent me becoming F. She explicitly said that I was born like F and it was really hard to "turn me around" because of bad genes. It was half joking and half serious, and I adopted the same thinking very thoroughly: the biggest goal of my life is to eliminate the traits I got from F as cleanly as possible.

This is why IC hates the fighter in me the most, the assertive, angry part of me. There are other factors too, such as the social expectation for a girl to be obedient and "nice". I know there is always a rebellious part in me, and I keep it on guard all the time because I am afraid I would "turn into F".

So during the feedback cycles of interacting with F and getting intimidated and insulted by him, together with M's determined goal to make me "less like F", I fully accept the presumption that I am a danger to others just as F is a danger to M and me: after all, I am F's daughter. It is a hopeless thinking, because I was born this way. I even used to joke with M that she should have picked a better genetic source for me. She said: then you won't be you any more. I said, no, I would be a better me. It was told as a joke at that time, but now it hurts.

It hurts because I know M would willingly sacrifice everything for me (which I found out in a(nother) traumatic experience we went through together). Initially it hurts even to just think maybe she also took responsibility for my suffering. Now I see it as an inevitable tragedy, not for me but for FOO: M married F even though she did not love him; they did not love each other. She married him because she was under a lot of social pressure, and later on pressured again to get pregnant and give birth. It was a disappointment that she gave birth to a girl instead of a boy, clearly expressed by F and F's FOO. Growing up in a family where F and M simply couldn't stand each other made me question every part of me too. Every time one said something nasty to the other, I wonder if there was also part of me that was hated. I am their product, after all. So soon there is nothing left in me that I feel deserve to be loved. And no assuring words from either F or M can help with it. There is simply nothing there that could have been fixed. If I could travel back in time, there would also be no switch for me to pull to make everything fall into the right track.

I edited the response because I realized it is all just one theory I came up with (and I cannot stand myself disclosing it in this way without any clear evidence to back up my theory). There is no way for me to test whether it is true or not, and I have experienced many times before that my brain offers the most incoherent logic and I will still accept it. I am waiting to see my T to see if there is another explanation, another route, another theory that can shed some reasoning onto the mist filled road.

From the sounds of it, you understand it intellectually, but you're not feeling it right? That's alright. It takes time.

I understand how hard it is to kick the habit of never thinking you could be angry at someone. It's been years for me — if not much of my entire life.

From reading "The Body Keeps The Score", the emotional and logical part of the brain is separated. It's easier to understand something for trauma, but to feel it is something else. You've had a lifetime of feeling that you don't have the right to be angry, a lifetime of people not believing in you and it is going to be hard.

But I believe you have the right to be angry. You do. And I bet other people will agree with me here.

:grouphug:

Hi Decimal (or Rocket, depends on which one you prefer), I'm not even convinced that I "understand it intellectually". I've always learned to second doubt my own thoughts, and as the symptoms escalate, I found it harder and harder to trust anything that came out of my brain without hard evidence. And I don't even know whether I want to be angry. I can be angry on other people's behalf; I'm constantly angry this week due to injustice that happened around me but not to me. And I know how bad it sounds but I can't help with it. I can't abandon my FOO like this even if I can confirm that my theory is true. They have sacrificed for me, and I just cannot describe those details here yet. So in the end it seems I am just fighting against myself again. Thank you for your kind words. I wish to truly act on them one day.

Ah, yes. Sorry if I misunderstood you there. That's okay too.  :hug:

I feel the same way sometimes. Finding it hard to believe things intellectually without an obsessive amount of proof. Especially when I was younger — where I'd pretty much have a habit of second guessing every moment of my life.

By the way, you can call me anything you like.

Another thing. It takes time so please take it at your own pace. Good luck, Camille.

Thanks, Decimal. There's no need to be sorry or apologize for misunderstanding. Different interpretations help a lot.

I just want to post something that is more forward than backward. So for the first time in this journal, no trigger warning.

I have confided with my friend about my condition. I have been thinking over it for a while, not because I am worried that she will reject me, but because I know she has so much on her plate already and I know she will still try to find space to accommodate me. It's a debate between how to avoid burdening her more than she already is handling, and how much I want to be truthful. I don't think there exists a right answer or a best solution to this question (I refuse to listen to IC babbling "you are just being selfish"). In the end I did it, because I don't want to hide any more, not from someone I care about and love.
So I told her in an almost nonchalant way, like a normal chat we often have. I didn't expect myself to pour it out like that (I planned a more careful way to initiate and organize the confession but plans don't always stick); that moment came and I couldn't hold myself any more. It did not require much of the explanation, because she has talked to me before about my trust issue and other obvious or more hidden problems I have. The only difference now is that both I and she know those come from CPTSD. I almost cried when she asked me what she could do to help me get better. I sincerely doubt I ever deserve a friend like her, but I am not pushing her away just because I am scared. I am not doing that any more. At the end of the conversation we shared a big hug.

I think I am extremely lucky to have kept (!) meeting genuine and caring people, despite my tendency to attract potential predators. It is almost unbelievable. I just want to share this ray of light in my life here. My EF's, hyper-vigilance and IC are still here with me, but I'm not giving up!

bravery comes in many different forms.  you showed a bunch of it in this post, by telling your friend, by not pushing away her care and concern for you, and by not giving up in spite of any ICr rants.

sound like a leap of progress to me, camille.  so very glad for you.  big hug.

There is something amazing that happens when someone is able to trust one another this way.

It's a showcase of how human beings can create connections where one isn't perfect. It's an expression of trust and an optimism for the possibilities — that despite the bad in the world, there's some good. The willingness to ask help is also a sign that you. . . somewhere in there — that you believe you deserve love and care.

I won't call myself the best person for relationship advice as I can be shy and I'm naturally solitary too . . . But from what I've heard . . .open communication has its benefits. You can work together, grow together and help each other now.

Take care.

Quote from: sanmagic7 on November 22, 2017, 09:59:00 PM
bravery comes in many different forms.  you showed a bunch of it in this post, by telling your friend, by not pushing away her care and concern for you, and by not giving up in spite of any ICr rants.

sound like a leap of progress to me, camille.  so very glad for you.  big hug.

:yeahthat:

Quote from: sanmagic7 on November 22, 2017, 09:59:00 PM
sound like a leap of progress to me, camille.  so very glad for you.  big hug.

Hug you back, San! I do have a feeling that I experienced a breakthrough recently, mostly because I am gradually getting over some of my self-denial that this was a problem I have instead of my actual personality. I need to thank you and everyone who replied to me here for this progress, because it's been so easy for me to believe I "made up" the pain when I'm locked up with IC alone in the same body. IC is still (or even more) full of vengeance right now, but at least I'll try to fight it when it comes back.

Quote from: DecimalRocket on November 23, 2017, 09:29:10 AM
open communication has its benefits. You can work together, grow together and help each other now.

My T mentioned this to me too, in a slightly different context. It was during the early sessions when I was describing to her that I didn't believe I experienced trauma, and it was just me being too "weak" when the teacher abused me, because I was not the only one who was punished, but the only one that was wrecked like this. She mentioned that people could experience the same thing differently, and having a connection to others without being isolated was found in some studies to have made a very big difference. So I think T and you are right. I used to think that due to my incapability to understand joy and a constant feeling of being segregated from "normal people", joy is something that connects people. Now I think people can get connected in many ways, and it might be more difficult and risky to try to understand each other in something painful, but it is a possibility and worth me keeping trying. After all, my friend said she doesn't understand my pain multiple times, but she still listened each time and tried to help me anyway; it made me shake with small hope rising in me.

Thank you, Blueberry.

Just something along the line San said and you seconded, I have been trying to reason with my IC on the topic about courage. I'm not sure whether this is a recommended thing to do, but the moments when my IC has complete control over me are the ones that it lists out all the reasons why I need to follow its order, and I would be forced to agree because I don't know how to rebut them. So I started having a debate with it, hoping that if it failed to support one of its argument then it cannot use that one strategy again.

-- TW (language)--
One of the reason IC listed to prove that I am a worthless piece of rubbish is that I am a coward. If I really think about it, it doesn't make any sense. Because IC was the one that stirred up fear in me to prevent me from being assertive or set any boundary. Thanks to it, I still don't understand what a boundary should look like and where it should be between two normal adults. IC made me willingly give up my defense, but then used the very same thing to attack me. It mocked me, shouting that I was never able to defend others when they needed help, and I was such a coward to feel threatened and scared all the time.

In the past few days, I tried a conversation with IC. The dialog was interrupted and inconsistent in the process, but (after some organization) it looked something like this:
Me: "You said I do not possess any form of courage."
IC:" That's right. You never act until you feel hundred percent secure."
Me:" But that is not true. I just did it."
IC:"Come on, you only did it after you knew there were others who were doing the same thing. You did it merely because you don't want to look too bad."
Me: paused a bit. "Maybe, yes, I gained more confidence after hearing about I was not the only one. But that did not necessarily diminish my intention. I did it, because it felt personal, because I believed it was the right thing to do." 
IC: laugh. "You can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. Fool, always rely on unsubstantiated feeling to gain a sense of self, which by the way, still does not e-x-i-s-t."
Me: in tears at this moment. conversation interrupted.
One day later.
Me: "Get out. I'm not done yet. We were talking about courage, and you kept saying that my action did not count as long as I felt insecure and scared."
IC: "Yes and no. Your action did not stand as a proof that you had courage, because you did it after you were not completely scared."
Me: "But that's not true. My decision was made before I got any assurance. Yes, the actual action was not an immediate response, but I was determined from the beginning."
IC: "Say that is true. But you were shaking the whole time like a pathetic timid animal. Simply pathetic. And you tell me that this is a form of courage?" Laughing.
Me: "How do you tell courage from the lack of it there was not fear in the first place? How do you validate it?"
IC: slowly quieted down.
Me: "I think it is actually because I was scared, and shaking, and feeling timid and threatened, but acted out on it any way, that showed I was brave, at least in that moment. It might only last for a second, a brief moment, because soon fear was suppressed as I was standing with the others, but it existed. You cannot deny it."
IC: quiet for a while.
Today.
IC: "I think you have a point. Don't show joy so soon, disgusting. It was only about that one single thing we talked about, doesn't mean that it applies to everything before or anything after. Remember, my eye is always on you, and any second you slip, I will be there to give you the proper reminder."
-- TW ends --

In spite of IC's threat, I consider this a triumph any way. I think the point is that I finally found a stand point where I could feel "safely scared" without fearing IC would come barking at me for just feeling scared. Now I can always tell it to wait, until it sees how I decide despite the fear. But I may also have set a trap for myself. From now on, fear would become a test that I need to pass according to IC's standard every time.

I'm not sure if this is a good tactic to try to shrink IC's voice. But I guess since I am trying to reason with it more as an equal than a subordinator, it is still a tempt forward? I discussed my logic about fear and courage with my T, due to time limit we didn't finish the discussion, but I think there is some truth in it. Why should we feel bad about being scared? Or am I simply trying to glorify something I shouldn't, as IC said "keep telling myself this because it makes me feel better"?

i think this was brilliant, camille.  courage has everything to do with fear.  it doesn't take any courage to do something that feels comfortable, that you have no fear of.  courage is doing something in spite of the fear you might feel.  to my mind, fear is an essential element of courage.

the fact that you stood up to your ICr, which has cowered you all your life, was an act of courage in itself.  you have more courage than that belittling voice ever had.  as far as gaining courage because of others, the saying goes that there is strength in numbers.  it's being resourceful to use what's around us to do what we fear doing.  there's nothing pathetic or pitiful about using our resources at all.  rather, it's creative, determined, and a means of self-care.

so, pooh on that ICr!  you now know that you have the courage to stand up to it, and those dialogues will become easier and easier.  there may be tears, for there will be loss - that ICr has been with you a long time - and there may be a period of adjustment at living more and more without that constant critical hammering of your mind.  but, you're courageous, and you'll get to where you want to go.  no doubt about that.  sending a warm, encouraging hug filled with love.

San, thank you for the validation. I was really anxious when posting it. I am still having a hard time distinguish "me" from ICr. I identified with ICr for so long that sometimes it felt rather strange to shout back at it (it felt like I was shouting at myself). But the more bitter and aggressive ICr gets, the easier it becomes to tell the difference. It's so depressing and ironic that it's almost funny sometimes. In the very few times when I managed to ridicule ICr and even laugh at it, that's when I think I really fended it off.
Most of the time though, I have to try to fight it when I'm choking on my tears. I keep telling myself that I'm fine with crying; I'm fine with feeling angry or scared; I'm entitled to those feelings. It doesn't always work, but I guess it's just the beginning, so that's ok too. Hug you back!

and it's a great beginning, camille, strong, solid, and a good foundation for building on.  i love that you can laugh at your ICr at times - laughter is the best medicine, after all, and nothing deflates a bully better than a good hearty laugh.

keep going, sweetie.  smiling for your progress.  warm, loving hug to you.

It can be hard. Telling yourself things like these seem strange. But things get easier to believe when they're repeated and become familiar. There are all kinds of triggers for the IC to show itself, and to be able to deal with every one of them one by one is difficult.

But you're trying your best. And you're doing some great progress here.

Take care.

camille,
I thought that inner conversation was beautiful, and very powerful.

San, thank you. I will try to keep up. It's been a tumultuous week for me, but I'll keep trying.  :hug:

Decimal, yes, the conversation almost sounds "fake" to me. But maybe just crying out things I don't firmly believe yet still helps. I mean, I've learned the worst thing through the same way (repeatedly hearing bad things about me that finally turned into ICr), so there is no reason it won't work the other way around.

Ah, thank you. I wish to be powered more, but one step at a time I suppose.

I've tried a few more things. Maybe I shouldn't have moved so fast so soon, but I couldn't wait. Unfortunately things just coincided with external triggers (always the best of luck).

I had a talk with M and tried to set boundaries with her. I told her the things she said that hurt me. And I asked her to promise to never say those things again. She apologized, and promised. That is probably the best I could hope for. I was crying the whole process like a joke, and I had to constantly defend my feelings because she got defensive back and said that I misunderstood her intentions and what she really meant. But after I clarified why I felt so upset and why I thought she was wrong in the very specific cases I raised, she said that she was sorry, that she didn't know better because no one taught her the right and wrong when she grew up. And now she knows how it affects me she won't do that any more.

-- TW (language) --
I am somewhat relieved that we set something straight. At least on the very specific things we talked about we had a consensus. But in the middle of it I felt really helpless when she said she loves me. I had the exact same reaction when my friend said "you know I love you, right?". I just want to shout back:"No, I don't believe you!" And I know this is a triggered response, a feeling instead of a real thought, but it's so painful to hear those words and only feel bitterness and despair. "I believe you think you love me, but I don't believe you actually do." This is all I can think of. And the hopeless part is not that I could be right or wrong, but that there is no way to find out, and in either case this is the best people have done for me, and I'm still rejecting it.I am also worried that I might have hurt M just as much. In one of the very few moments when she showed vulnerability to me, she said that she "failed in pretty much everything except being a mom", and now I took the last bit of that self-assurance away from her. I thought I was trying to heal, but really all I am doing is breaking; breaking relationships, breaking people's feelings, breaking what I have left.

This happened one week ago. I isolated myself and shut down after the conversation even though I did not regret having it.

--Modified: delete disturbing contents--

Today I set everything back. I woke up to another triggered EF. M called in when I was in the middle of it. I said a number of horrible things to her. Everything felt so hopeless. I've done too much damage to be able to remedy it before I damage again.

I'm not completely out of it yet. I need some time for myself, but I have work to do. I'll try to come back after I stabilize down a bit.

standing right beside you, camille, while you go thru this process.  i think you did well with your mom, and am glad to hear that she apologized and explained.  i've done that w/ my own d because i am sorry i hurt her and also because i didn't know how to do it differently.   i've also messed up a few times, but she now knows that sometimes i need reminding and i'm able to apologize quickly now for the slip-up.

i always took pride in being a good mom, too, and learning i wasn't as good as i thought stung a bit, but i'd rather know the truth and change what i can than keep going on hurting her or making her uncomfortable.  because she's spoken up, we are now having an easier, more comfortable relationship, more fun together, and more trust between us.

i think accepting love can be difficult - it's such a huge emotion to wrap one's head around, and if we haven't been shown love in our past, we don't necessarily trust it in our present.  it sounds like you're going thru some changes, camille, and those are usually messy times.  small steps, my dear.  they still count.  big hug to you.

I've had a similar talk with my M today after having multiple EFs so destructive that it left me feverish and weak — meaning I had to stay at home for now. She kept pushing me to follow through with things even if I was exhausted and it took a lot of effort emotionally and physically to convince her.

It can be tough to learn how to communicate this way, especially when we can both be sensitive to rejection. But communication and boundaries allow a greater peace in the long term from my own experiences and others I've heard.

So take it easy.  :hug:

Sorry I have been missing the past few days. I was struggling to hold myself together, but I finally got out of the last round of EF.

San, thank you, as always. Thank you for the perspective as a mother. I tried to think from M's side too, but she said it was impossible for me to understand because I never had the experience. I guess that generally holds true, that we can never fully understand each other because we cannot share brains and experience the same way, but I still believe that some kind of mutual agreement can be achieved. Red might be of a different hue in our eyes, but we would both agree sunset is beautiful.

Decimal, I agree with you that even though it is difficult, conversation like this can still be helpful. I will try to keep this mind set but I'm sure the next time I will just struggle as much. So I guess pace is the key.  :hug:

I'm just glad you're trying Camille.  :hug:

i'm glad you're feeling a bit more stable, camille.  going thru that stuff is just messy, but we can usually come out the other side a little wiser, a little stronger, and a little better prepared.

i think you're doing great.  pace is definitely important.  big hug full of care and love.

Thanks, Decimal and San. I can't really say that I'm making progress. I keep an hour entry to keep track of every hour of what I am doing because I so often lose track of time. And I made a new column to take notes of EF episodes and ICr ranting. The pie chart of the EF vs non-EF is just deflating if not scary.

I feel guilty every time I log on here and try to post how I feel, if that feeling is not positive enough. My logical side tells me that this is alright, this is what a journal is supposed to do, to record all the snapshots of my moods, emotions, helplessness and relief. But my well-trained slave of ICr would start pouring the opposite ideas: I am a burden, a violator, an intruder. That little protégé of ICr wins every time, especially when I am triggered. I self censor everything I feel, everything I want to say, everything that is true but not pleasant. So why am I here again? Maybe my baby self wants help,  even though her sister is horrified that there would be repercussions soon after. They are crying and fighting each other.

So here again, something unpleasant, and probably disturbing, and I'm bound to hate myself after I post it.
-- TW (language) --
I have a very strange relationship with ICr. Often I feel disgusted by myself because of this relationship. I think, sometimes, I am seeking ICr's venom. I am secretly waiting, hoping for its punishment, because it will hurt, and I will feel relieved afterwards due to the contrast. For that brief moment right after its full power over me, I will be allowed a second to breathe without feeling too much guilt or shame. And sometimes, I think I am going after the hurt alone. There's no excuse to explain it. I want to feel pain because I want to feel something. It disgusts me. I disgust me.

I haven't done that in a while, but tonight I'm scared that this bad old habit will come back. I have a feeling that I'm secretly creating an excuse for ICr to attack. In the past few days when ICr is mostly hiding in the dark, I notice that its counter part, OCr came out, fully blasting. I feel disconnected from both the external world and internal, in a very repulsive way; I feel repelled by the world surrounding me and whatever resides in the same body. I want to cleanse my inside if there's a way. I feel dirty, sweat clinging to the inside walls. And I project that to everyone around me, for every simple action they do, for every word they say, for every side glance they cast and every reasonable request they make. I stopped talking. I minimized my interaction with people to the extent that I am rude now. I shut off in front of M and found excuses to avoid talking to her. I want to hide, to run away, to somewhere really safe, safe from both people and myself.

I suppose this is just another type of EF, except I don't know what I am flashing back into. The other ones, the ones that are genuinely humiliating and belittling, are easier to understand, because I know where they come from; I have memories that will not only explain, but also "match" the flashback I have emotionally. But this, feeling dirty, and feeling both enraged and scared, I don't know what it is. I have no memory from the past to help me understand why it hits me like this.

So I'm afraid that out of fear, I would seek help from ICr again, to let it do its pure shaming exercise, because if it is just one emotion I feel it would be easier to deal with. I think it's easier to feel depressed and threatened than to feel this "all way mutual rejection", that I reject everyone, everything ,and myself.

-- TW ends --

Pete Walker did mention that OCr will come out more if ICr is being shrunk, and it takes practice to shrink both. I don't know what to do. I'm tired of hating, hating myself, hating other people for things they didn't do wrong. I don't want to be angry or happy. I just want to be at peace with what I can have right now, which is a lot already. It's so much that I already have, and I can't bring myself to appreciate it. I think tonight, I'll try to cry. Maybe ICr will be a bit gentle when it finds me again. Maybe I'll slip into dreams easier this way. I'm sorry I keep doing the same thing over and over again.

camille, no need to apologize for being who you are, ever.  not here.  we accept you, pos., neg., and everywhere in between.  you are working thru all this right now, and writing it courageously, even when you're afraid or uncertain.  that's what i call progress.

you let it out, and you let it be without deleting it.  that's progress, sweetie.  this process is full of big and small steps, and letting your post stand was a big step.  you will get to where you want to go, step by step.   you just showed that you have what it takes.  will it be perfect all the time?  nope - none of us can lay claim to that.  will it be messy at times?  yep - we've all been there, done that.

ICr begins shrinking?  that's because you are showing it who's boss, and it ain't ICr.  OCr will shrink in time as well.  be patient with yourself.  none of us have done this all at once.  as blueberry says, rome wasn't built in a day.  take your time - it's your recovery to do with the best you can.  you're ok in my book.  warm, loving hug to you. 

Thank you, San. I did think about deleting partially the posts again. Your reply stopped that idea.  :hug:
Maybe I am rushing it, because I don't feel progress at all. Feelings come back to where I always stand, just maybe in a different light now. I wonder if it is a good idea to have much hope, such as having the mess diminishing in size. It might be too much to ask for. Instead, maybe I should focus on how to come into terms with what I am now, that things are just going to be the same but maybe I'll finally accept it. In the end, this is an injury, right? Some part is missing, broken, and simply cannot be erased or fixed.

I know it sounds off-putting and depressing, but I am contemplating it as a genuine question. T told me once that sometimes to have hope is to give it up first. She kept saying "let go". I'm not entirely sure what exactly she wants me to let go. My defense mechanism? My search for trustworthiness in people I don't trust? Or just this "self" I created out of thin air to fill up the container that is still functioning?

The holiday season is here. We are having small and bigger celebrations at the work-place, nothing fancy, just people chilling together, trying to relax a bit. I am never good with social instances like this, but the tenderness and happiness in the air are getting a bit hard to deal with. Everyone is going back home, to someone. I know it's selfish and sick for me to be this much resentful when I see the excitement on people's face. It's a signal that I'm detached, that I don't belong. T will also take a month off, so I'm all on my own now. Here is the only place I can talk.

yes, it is an injury, and healing takes place in steps, fits and starts.  i think the idea that you are seeing things in a different light is a step, is progress.   any kinds of changes can be a step, no matter how small it may seem.  they count, camille.  they all count - they're movement, and that's what recovery is all about, to my mind.

let go - well, that can mean different things for different people or situations.   we can let go of fighting what is and accept it instead, if fighting it hasn't gotten us to where we want to go. 

we can let go of trying to change things that are out of our control, like the behaviors and beliefs of others.  they have their own perspective of the world, based on their own experiences.  we can't change that.

we can let go of beliefs that do us harm, and begin bringing into ourselves messages that help us feel better about ourselves. 

lots of stuff we can let go of.  i think the main goal in recovery is to recover our 'selves', who we really are instead of who we were told we were.  when i think of babies, they knew they belonged, were deserving of nurturing, kindness, and love and all the other things that would help them survive in a positive manner.  those baby beliefs are part of our true selves, in my book. 

ICr, OC, neg. beliefs about ourselves - those are all things we can let go of.  not all at once, no, that would be too overwhelming.  but, little by little, step by step, our own pace, our own time.  it's a goal to strive for, no?  and, that's where our hope could lie. 

big hug to you, sweetie, full of care, comfort, clarity, and love.

It's okay to feel badly about other people sometimes. We're human, and it takes incredible effort to be patient with everyone. Especially when you're hurting inside. I think being sick of people like that is a sign that you need to prioritize yourself first, and to heal. The more people are healed and can take care of themselves, the more they'll naturally have compassion for other people.

I had times like that too. Where I hated everyone. Where I was angry and envious of others all the time. I hated myself for it, but well, it took time. It took time to change mentally and emotionally, and I wish I knew that I was still worth love and respect as a human being back then. And I believe you do Camille. You're trying your best after all.

Take care.  :hug:

Thank you, San. I have been slacking off in fighting back ICr and OCr. But I think it's time for me to get back on track again. At times I write down positive things I don't even believe myself, but later on when I look back, they help me pull out of the mud I'm sinking in. So I think I will try to do that more often. I haven't let anything go yet. They are subconscious defense or trained thoughts now, stitched into my mind. I don't think I am ready to pull them out; the pain is unbearable. I'm not ready to let the defense down either. The only thing I am trying to do is to not feel bad when I have the defense up, to not chase after myself when I try to protect myself in startled state. I'm taking it very slowly because it reverses back so easily.

Decimal, I realize my anger is toward the abusers, the system that destroyed not only me but so many lovely people I knew, and I couldn't channel the anger anywhere so for the short burst I lashed it out on anyone within my reach. Now I know where it comes from, I think I'm a bit more level-headed to direct it. But no guarantee. I think if I did anything wrong or hurt anyone on the road, I would still need to acknowledge it and apologize it, if I ever get the chance. There could also be damages made that cannot be fixed any more; the people that have been pushed too far away by me won't come back again, and I can't blame them. Hopefully, hopefully, that I will still get myself, the part of me that is still innocent to stay with me.

Hug you both back. :grouphug:

In the first entry of this journal, I said I did not remember much from childhood. Later I realized that was not entirely true. I have many, many vivid memories, and I refuse to look back at them. I talked about F briefly because he is actually the easiest one to talk about. I blocked him out since I was little, so there was some kind of numbness that protected me when I conjured the memories.

I'm still not ready to share all the rest of the story, the darkest chapter. I tried before, and no one believed me. I trust people won't judge me here, but I have a feeling that maybe it's my way of telling things, maybe just how horrified I sound when I describe things, that it turns out to seem more exaggerated than truthful to an outsider, especially if the outsider never saw anything like it before. But if I don't write this down, then I will always reverse back to the place I start with: I don't have a problem; it's all in my head; I did not suffer, I did not suffer enough.

So I'll try again, here. It's going to be lengthy, so I break them down into smaller posts; the trigger warning will continue till I finish this chapter.

-- TW (languge, physical abuse, emotional abuse) --

It started in day-care. I had teachers who shouted at us, slapped us, pinched us in the arm. We had to take a nap at noon every day, and even if many of us were awake during that time, we weren't allowed to leave the bed or use the restroom. The teachers walked around, checking if we were pretending to sleep. If we forgot to go to the restroom before the nap time and then requested it, the teacher would take that kid outside and punish her/him by yelling or hitting. So I had to hold my bladder and my breath when I sensed someone was standing behind me while I faked my sleep. I could feel how their eyes were fixed on my back. I heard their steps stalled behind me, then there was the uneasy silence, as if they were assessing whether I was asleep or not. I would wait until the steps faded and then adjusted my pose a little bit to not draw them back. There was one time I threw up on the bed, and I was forced to eat that back.

And there was the constant shaming. I watched in horror how other kids got shamed, being called "useless, wasteful, stupid, retarded, disrespectful, unworthy". That's when the fawning response got a full development before I reached age of five. I would do anything for the teacher to just avoid being shamed or hit in the public. I was the lap-dog, too scared to say no. It was all about survival since day one.

-- TW cont. (languge, physical abuse, emotional abuse) --

This continued to high school. By fawning I was able to get away with a lot of the physical punishment when I got older, but emotional wise it never got better. The teacher would roll up the paper/book to hit my head and scold me until I started crying, that's when she actually said she was "satisfied that I recognized my fault", and used my crying as a example for other kids to "learn from". We were encouraged to spy on each other, report each other. There was a dooming atmosphere in the classroom where we knew we were being watched all the time. Whispering to the person next seat, scribbling on the notes, spacing out, shaking legs, looking out of the window, didn't know how to answer a question when being asked, smiling at a friend - anything could be an excuse for the teacher to explode and lash out on us. As a child I often got sick and muted; it annoyed the teachers that I could only produce hiss sound when asked to speak. I was punished for "disrespect" and stood for the rest period of the class while everyone remained seated and watched me.

The funniest part was that I was also bullied often because the kids thought I was favored by the teacher. I fawned on the teachers so often to get away with physical abuse that the rest of them thought I had special treatment. My best friend was a girl who was also bullied. The two of us would get together, drew down the people who hurt us (adults and kids) using chalks on the ground and stepped on those figures. It was our way to find some relief.

Physical pain was never the worst. I was pushed to the ground. They stripped my clothes. When the teacher condemned bullying half-heartedly in the classroom, they accused me to be the perpertrator, saying that I was "laughing at them". The boy next door used to threaten to rape me. To be frank, nothing extreme ever happened to me physically (or at least I don't remember things like that). It was all just scratches and small bruises at most, so if I did not say a word (I didn't), M wouldn't even find out. What really shook me was not what happened, but rather what could have happened. I was so overpowered that even though most of the threats never took place, I knew that there was nothing that could prevent them from happening. I got to live a semi-normal life because I was somehow spared. I did not survive. They let me live.

-- TW cont. (languge, physical abuse, emotional abuse) --
I was taught so many wrong things over such a long time that it felt baffling the first time I talked to normal people after I got out. Obedience is discipline; discipline means uniformity; uniformity is power; self-shame is a virtue; kindness is weakness; admiration equals lewdness; and life is only of instrumental value (if you don't function, you are not worthy).

Love was a forbidden word. It was shameful to show affection, any kind of affection. If we just stood too close together the teachers got suspicious. I was called to the office so many times because I would laugh at jokes told by a boy sitting next to me. I learned to be ashamed of almost all feelings, good and bad, because we were not allowed to have them.The only one I was allowed to keep was shame and despair. And kids would laugh at me for being a coward, a cry baby, a spineless pathetic wreck.

But there was always an exception, and those exceptions, I believe, are the main reason why I never successfully eliminate the little one in me. It was during my early teenage year. I was already used to being bullied or witness bullying, but during that brief period of time there was this group of kids in school who seemed to have a mutual understanding of the situation and decided to never do that to each other. That was the only time I remembered I could be a bit relieved, and even happy.

It was also helpful that there were a couple of  teachers who tried to shield us from the toxic environment. The other teachers, though, were especially harsh on us because we were "hard to discipline". In the school gatherings and meetings, we were always called out to be the "worst kids they ever taught", that we were "wasting the parents' money, wasting the society's resources", and we "were destined to become trash" once we grew up. But we had each other, and that was (almost) enough to become resilient. The boys often got corporeal punishment. The girls were shamed more often. One male teacher constantly implied that we did not dress properly, and even said to one girl that she was dressed like a whore (because she was wearing a white shirt that got a bit transparent after PE class due to sweat). We fought back by refusing to obey the teachers deliberately, but there was only so much we could do without being punished two folds worse.

The hierarchy in the school not only affected us, but also the younger teachers. A very gentle and likeable teacher was constantly chided and pushed around by her older colleagues for being "too easy" on us. She was bullied into tears after one chaotic class because we got too excited in the classroom. So we gathered together, and wrote encouraging words to her on a card to cheer her up.  That didn't go too well for her and us either, because teacher wasn't supposed to bond with students that way; they were supposed to hold absolute authority over us, to be feared and to be obeyed. I remember that we sat together, whispering how much we appreciated her, with the thick air absorbing the helplessness we all felt, fearing that she might get fired because of us.

-- TW cont. (language, physical/emotional abuse) --
There are other things. I haven't sorted through them all out yet, like the drowning sensations I get every time I go to a swimming pool. It's a strange pulling force: I want to go in and stay away at the same time, and I only have a small clue about where it comes from. Some of the other stories, even though I can picture every single detail, I don't think I will ever get a chance to talk about it without getting repercussions even today. I will need to wait for at least another thirty years maybe.


I finally let it out, here, public, open, on the internet where anyone that wants to read can find it. Not completely, not everything that bothers me, but it's here now. I had people who knew the story call me snowflake, because so many kids went through the same thing, and I was the only one whining about it. The rest of them either shake their head, because "it can't be that bad", or the opposite, "everyone had it tough in childhood".

To be frank I'm not sure how to feel about it myself even, I should be angry, or at least upset, but all I have is a feeling of emptiness, like something is ripped from my inside, and wind blows through it, making weird sound.

But I don't want to pretend I'm normal. I'm not. I'm the glitch in the uniform pattern, the frequency out of the range. I'm not conforming to what has been long accepted.

Today everywhere I go, I carry the feeling of eyes on my back, all the time. My counteracting strategy is very strange: I seek monitors and cameras in the public place. I feel being watched all the time, might it as well be something that actually exists. I don't feel safe; I'm prepared to jump, run, fight back. But sometimes, maybe the only way to stay safe is to not feel safe.

-- TW ends --

I'm sorry it turned out to be so lengthy. Really I could probably summarize it in just one sentence: bullied and harassed when growing up. But I want to preserve the details. I can't duplicate the horror; it's something that is really not comprehensible without first-hand experience, and I will never, never wish that on anyone. I omitted a lot of things already because I'm not ready to reveal something that might expose myself in real life. But I think it matters to record as much as I can at this moment, even just pieces of it.

I don't know. I'm so naive sometimes. Right now it feels good to just tell it without receiving dubious glances from people.

Oh, dear Camille! I was also stood in front of a class, to shame me, and when you told of that experience, my heart went racing back there, standing in front of 30 or so laughing, pointing children. A feeling of being completely ostracized, abandoned, by my peers came over me. Such an awful feeling, a horrifying experience! I empathize with you.  :hug:

Without doubt, you endured extreme abuse. You should have been nurtured, protected, and instead the very people who were supposed to be caring for you were your bullies and abusers. I stand as a witness with you to this horrifying betrayal of your trust, an innocent child being brutally and cruelly treated this way.

It's out, in the light of day. It's not your shame, because you did nothing wrong to be ashamed of. The shame belongs to the adults who failed miserably in their role as protectors.

not a whiner, but a truth-teller, camille.  and, nope, the shame belongs to the others, not you.  you don't have to carry that for them.  i'm glad you let it out.  big hug.

Hey Camille, that sounded terrible.

I remember my own intense shame — though it had less to do with emotional abuse than it was emotional neglect — an ignorance of my existence to a damaging extent. There wasn't much going on externally, but I often felt day and day in that everyone's eyes were on me — laughing at me, seeing me as worthless and shaming me for my own emotions.

Big sigh here. It was really abuse that you've experienced there. The disrespect to your own feelings — things that are inherent in human nature itself. The extremely impossible standards. Punishments against you as a human being rather than your temporary actions. The discouragement of nurturing and love. The abuse of power.

Take care Camille. Take care.

Three Roses, I'm so sorry that you went through the same thing. I'm sorry that my memory conjured yours. Thank you for confirming with me that this is abuse. My ICr keeps telling me that I just want to complain, that these are normal things kids go through. Thank you for assuring me that it is not, that it is beyond normalcy. Thank you for your empathy. I think I need those now.  :hug:

San, thank you for stopping by. I hope you are not stretching your limit too far for me. Please take care. Hug you back.

Decimal, emotional negligence is among the worst experience. You are right that it damages us when we are treated not as human beings, not as someone who shares the same humanity. I told T once that my life so far has been about power abuse, and she nodded her head. Thank you and everyone else for giving it the right name, abuse without excuses. I'm still struggling to kick ICr back, but having a place to come back and re-read those reassurances really help.  :hug:

Letting things out was scary, and then relieving, until it returned something very much unexpected: my memories. I have been a mess until early this morning. It's the first time it happened: I am reliving a visual flashback, accompanied by the usual EF. I don't think I ever lost the memory about it; it was this corner in my mind that I refused to look at; I dimmed the light, let dust fall on it, zoomed out, so I didn't have to deal with it. But I knew it was always there. And somehow, by telling my story here, I accidentally switched the light in the room, wiped out the dust, adjusted the focal length so that it was clear in focus.

-- TW (bullying) --
It was a very small thing I remembered, but I have been obsessed with this new piece of information. I was seven years old. It was a birthday party, the first and only one I was ever invited to. I wore the new coat M bought for me; it had a lovely ribbon in the front. They, the kids, threw it on the floor, stampped on it in turns as an entertaining game; I watched it being dragged across the greasy floor of the room helplessly in tears. When it all ended, I picked up the coat, thinking maybe it could be still saved after I asked M to wash off the dirt; I would tell her that I accidentally dropped it. And then I saw it, the surface of the ribbon was worn out. I don't think I ever wore that coat again. Later that night M got mad at me for not calling her to pick me up; she thought I was having too much a good time that I didn't want to respond. I couldn't tell her the truth so I just kept saying I was sorry, I didn't know.
-- TW ends --

I keep seeing the image of the ribbon. It is some kind of fake velvet, smooth, grey, and shines in light. And then in the middle there is the area that has been rubbed off. I also see the face of the boy who suggested the "game". There is so much venom and exhilaration about being able to punish me in his eyes. I keep staring that pair of eyes back.

I think I finally understand why there is so much hatred in ICr's voice. Because I was hated, by a lot of people. I saw in their eyes their wishes for me to disappear. I don't understand. What did I do?

I'm in such a mess right now. But on the upper side, I think, this is the first time I actually feel bad for myself.

oh Camille, i'm so sorry  :hug: :hug: and more  :hug: :hug: for little 7 year old you. The only birthday party you went to and they bullied you, they ruined your coat with your lovely ribbon. No adult there to care or help you, no parent you could turn to afterwards with your hurt.

You didn't do anything! Some people like to bully. They have their reasons for that, but it doesn't have anything to do with you! Their reasons aren't OK either. They need help in correcting their behaviour, at least.

I know what it feels like to be hated in childhood and for people to want me to disappear, to not exist. So will others on here.  :grouphug: :grouphug:

 :hug:

 :bighug: :bighug: :bighug:

I know what it's like to be bullied and left out like that. It really is something cruel to take a child's wonder towards the world and to allow you to grow up feeling that way.

Take care.

Thank you, Blueberry. Now I am finally out of constantly seeing the image of the ribbon, I realize it was such an awful memory because it is about something I loved getting destroyed in front of my eyes. I felt responsible for not saving the coat, the ribbon, much more than the feeling that I was hurt as a seven year old.

I want to agree with you that it's just a lot of horrible people I met, that they hated for nothing. But I often wonder whether they were also projecting their own suffering on me, because I was on the bottom of the food chain. I'm not looking for excuses; what they did cannot be waved away by anything; but I don't feel resentment any more, just really tired, and some sadness that we (the bullies and I) grew up together like this. We could have been friends, could have had fun together, could have shared and shouldered each other's pain, but instead they chose to do this, and I couldn't defend myself.

Thank you for understanding. I always know I'm not alone. It's just I'm alone in the memories. It's painful to relive it, but I'm glad I did, because it felt one thing I got to resolve. :hug:

Decimal,  thank you for understanding. I'm sorry that you knew how it felt too. The other day I felt really relieved after I chatted with a co-worker for a bit. I think it is because I believe he's friendly and doesn't hate me. It is really nice talking to someone who I believe doesn't hate me. I think I subconsciously group people into: hate me, not sure, not hate me, and never let my guard down if I interact with the first two categories. It is so very exhausting to have do this all the time without even realizing it. 

San, :grouphug:

i also know, personally,  what it's like to be hated, thru no fault of my own (or yours) except for the mere fact of my existence.  even in the world picture, i am hated by many for the fact that i'm american.  it's an absolute shame that this happens, and i wish it hadn't happened to you, especially to the point that you now have to categorize people.   that's just awful.

i'm so mad that people find that kind of outlet for their own issues.  it totally sucks.

camille, i can't tell you how glad i am to hear that you had a friendly conversation with someone at work.  that's the best news i've heard today.  i hope it continues.  warm, loving hug to you, sweetie. 

Yes, it can be very difficult to trust people after trauma. I can deeply relate. But i'm glad you're taking steps with at least someone who looks nice.

:hug:

Hi San and Decimal, sorry it took me so long to reply to your kind words.
I have been through some rough periods since the beginning this year. I couldn't bring myself up back to the website, and just feared that whatever i was going to say was not going to be nice or help anyone. There was shame and guilt, and sometimes bursts of outer critic that scared me.
So I waited, till I felt I could post something decent. So here it is.

I have a deep fear about driving and cars. There is no obvious reason to me. I guess I am just simply terrified by the speed of a car. I failed the road tests twice in a row, and couldn't bring myself to try again for nine years. I have been relying on other people and public transportations to go to other places. Everyone keeps telling me that I should try again, otherwise I am a burden to myself and people around me. I prepared the documents at the end of last year, and thought I could overcome the fear. I didn't. It took me another two months to gather the courage again. Today I went there. It was a bit overwhelming to be sandwiched in crowds but I passed the written test. I still need to recharge my courage and contact a driving school to actually learn it properly, but this is a big enough step for me that I feel justified to post it here.

Sorry for just going off line suddenly without a word. I expect a bumpy roads ahead, so I may just disappear again, and I won't be able to predict when and why. But to everyone that has paused at my post and/or reply something back, I am really really grateful, and I will try to keep up and do something return. I hope this short update can offer something more hopeful for me and anyone who might find it encouraging.
Love,
Camille

It's alright, Camille. You can come here or not at your own pace. It took me about a year to  feel fully confident about posting my more vulnerable feelings in just online, and I still feel shy to respond to other's posts sometimes here.

You've done a wonderful job with the driving test. It must be really great after all that fear. But you don't need to accomplish something to come here. You're cared for as you are — with all your flaws, struggles, hopes, dreams and fears as a human being.

Because we're human too.

Quote from: DecimalRocket on March 24, 2018, 09:59:23 PM
It's alright, Camille. You can come here or not at your own pace. ...

You've done a wonderful job with the driving test. It must be really great after all that fear. But you don't need to accomplish something to come here. You're cared for as you are — with all your flaws, struggles, hopes, dreams and fears as a human being.

Because we're human too.

:yeahthat:

I've been frightened of driving all my life. Eventually I did get a license , but then I drove once and never again! I live in a country where I can get around pretty well without a car. Before I had my license people used to go on and on about me being a burden on other people or how I would be later etc and I couldn't expect to rely on my husband. I don't even have a husband!!

Just recently I was in a car with other people and they were backing down an incline. It wasn't even dangerous, but still I had some sort of visual flashback to something that had been - a near accident on very bad, very steep roads, very bad situation when I was a child. Fortunately, the driver managed to right the situation, not go over the edge. So there could be something like that which you're not remembering?

There are other reasons too for my fear. I've pretty much always been aware of those reasons. They're trauma-related to do with FOO.

I don't think it's OK to tell people that they are a burden! I know the pain of being told that though.  :hug: :hug:

Decimal, thank you for validating my posts here. I "know", meaning that I understand that no one will judge me unfairly here, and what pushes me to self sensor is the part in me that produces shame. I still don't know how to overcome it. Most of the time it feels like I am not trying hard enough to reject it. Someone once told me that I cannot "know" without "believe", so if I do not believe that I can exist without proving my worthiness, then I cannot "know" for real what you, Blueberry and others keep telling me. But there is no ground for me to not believe what you said, nor did I even wish to reject it. It seems a problem that should not even be there, yet I always end up in the same place.

Blueberry, maybe you are right that I have some hidden memories, but I don't recall any so there is not a way to find out unless it surfaces again. There is not much public transportation around, but I have been fortunate to live somewhere close to my workplace, so I can avoid driving by walking or taking taxi occasionally, but this lifestyle is not sustainable in general, especially when something unexpected happens. It never feels good when someone straightforward tells me or hints at that I am a burden. There is not necessarily malice behind it, or intended contempt. And the same people are often willing to lend me hand when I ask for help. So I cannot really argue back, as that statement is somewhat true. What prompts me to try again is primarily the realization that there are so many things I cannot do by myself if I cannot drive (some of them become more urgent these days), and I would hate to beg someone again and again. I know begging is not the same as asking for help, but that is how it feels to me every time. The fear should not be anything enough to validate my reluctance in trying, and part of my autonomy will be lost to someone until I get out of it. I am hoping the fear of dependence will override the fear of driving. It sounds a ridiculous plan, but maybe that is how it will work for me for now. Is there a way to feel less scared? Just temporarily so that I can actually make something happen?

I can relate with knowing something, but not feeling something good. It's crazy how much we invalidate ourselves constantly sometimes.  :fallingbricks:

I don't know if if applies to you, though it applies to me and many other people based on therapy books I read, that some beliefs have to be affirmed by action. Without real world experience, many of our beliefs are just beliefs, and not knowledge. I healed by allowing myself to act on meeting people over and over again in the right sources and with the right ways, and I gain affirmation on myself over time.

Though, at times, I can't heal with other's affirmations. I can only heal then by affirming myself and recognizing what I know about myself from the trust in myself I gained from others.

Anyway, take your time. These things really do need time after all, so be slow or quick as you like.  :hug:

Decimal, I think you may have hit the point about having experience to "confirm" an idea. Consciously or not, I think I have been searching for "evidence" from people so that I can trust them, and I am also searching for things that make myself feel that I am trustworthy too. There is no good way to say this, and it probably is not good in any sense, but I have been waiting for something bad to happen to me; I don't know what and how, just know that I need to go through it to prove that I am a good enough person, to prove to myself that I earned my existence. I also rely on others' validation to confirm that it is ok for me to be where I am. I lack an internal reference point, and like you said, I will need to learn that. Feeling relaxed or content with myself stands for something dangerous. And the same spreads to how I feel about other people too. As I look back at the beginning of my journal, I am not sure how much progress I have made. I am rather stubbornly refusing to change, or just never overcome the fears. The fears, they are everywhere, filling up every pore every fiber of my being. I still haven't processed the worst experience in my life (the lack of it here), and I wonder whether I will ever be ready.

----------------------
I switched T. I liked my old T; she never rushed me even though I would make one step forward and several back frequently. But she is taking a leave and may no longer work here, so I went to the new T she referred me to. We only had two sessions so far, and I think it might work; I just got very tired after summarizing over what my old T and I worked out in the past year within the two sessions. But I am glad that this T agrees with the CPTSD alignment, and we have been talking about the traumas that I have been organizing in my head over and over again. In the last session she said that I need to practice not having to take every reaction from other people as a blame (to me), to not take it personally. I said taking it as a personal blame is like bracing for the worst case scenario. It hurts, but in the case that they do intend to blame me, at least I would have foreseen it and pacify the fire before they burst on me. I don't know what comes first: I need to feel safe to stop using those defensive mechanisms, but if I don't use those tactics I won't feel safe. It is actually kind of funny, because in the end I probably don't feel safe anyway; often after pacifying people with fawning, I just feel the adrenaline drains out and I have survived one more time. So why not try what T and others suggest, just to hold myself down for once and not back off for a change? And ICr will say I am too timid, too weak, too pathetic. It is getting easier to shut it out these days, but it still pokes me. What if it is right.

Long.
--------
I am trying to expose myself to more crowds. Some of the trials went ok, some of them felt like a punishment I signed up for myself, and some of them ended up being a failure that I did not know how to fix.

I went to a book club, and people were so relaxed over there that I was awed by the comfortableness in their body language. Even though I felt very much out of the place to be there, I think I would try to stay. Maybe if I see more of how normal people live and talk I will believe that it is possible for me too. Even if it won't, it still serves as a good reminder.

Then there is a local event that looks for volunteer. I signed up last time, so I signed up again, even though I did not like it at all. I am terrible with kids. There were a lot of people last time cramped in a small space, and I had to detach myself from the site to get through the few hours. I think I need to prepare to detach again. I said I would do it because it is a good thing to do (it's about education). But now I am dreading it, and hate myself for dreading it, for not wanting to do something good, for having a genuine goal not enough to motivate myself.

Today I went to a social gathering with a co-worker. It all went well, until I got triggered by someone else, who did not even do anything; my brain just decided that it wanted me to feel nauseated. My flight response was fired and I pretty much walked out on everyone, including the one I went with. I was terribly rude, but now I don't even know what to do. No one said a thing yet, and I feel a complete disaster. Can't even hold myself up for an hour in front of people I am familiar with.

I want to stop the experiment about getting to more social situations. But it would be too much like a give-up. On the other hand the more places I go, higher frequency I will screw things up. My OCr wants me to hate everyone, but I know that all I hate is myself.

hey, camille,

may i suggest something?  maybe you're trying to do too much at a time.  i don't think that backing out of doing something you don't like is a failure.  i think it's a sign that you're beginning to realize and clarify some of your own likes and dislikes, and possibly thinking of making boundaries for yourself.  i don't see any of that as failing, but rather a sort of victory.

i like the way that book group sounds, and i like your thoughts about it, too.  the idea that people felt at ease and comfortable, and you were able to tell that from their body language seems very powerful to me, and certainly something that might be worth being around on a more regular basis.

as far as doing something 'good', i believe that's pretty subjective.  is it actually good if it's something that doesn't fit you, your personality, your energy level, whatever?  i once heard it said that there are people who fit more readily with certain jobs, and those are the ones who need to be doing them.  that doesn't make any judgment, like bad or good, but rather an acknowledgment that we all don't enjoy the same things.

i couldn't be a caretaker for seniors, wouldn't like it, yet one of my roommates works at a senior living center and absolutely loves it.  does that make me bad or her good?  i don't think so.  we all have different personalities, likes, dislikes, favorites, etc., and i think the best thing we can do is align ourselves with our best fit. 

basically, i'm thinking that i hope you don't be hard on yourself because of some irrelevant expectations that people have thrown around.  i can't stand to be in a roomful of kids, would dislike immensely to be in that situation.  yet, i know lots of people who would rather do that than anything else.  we're all so different.  be true to you, camille.  that's something that really is 'good'.   love and hugs, sweetie.

I agree with San. No need to rush everything, alright? Taking it slow is incredibly important to your healing process. I find with my experiments that when I can take a pause and reflect upon them deeply after taking action, I benefit more. That when I rest before going in again, I feel more motivated to follow through. Force it, and somehow it makes it less motivating.

I find it brave that you're willing to try so hard. You sound deeply hardworking and perseverant, and that could allow you to do a lot of progress. But take care of yourself too, okay?

:hug:

San, thank you for the alternative take on the "I don't like kids, does that mean I am not a good person" issue. I know it is probably cliched to think so, but when the event pops up in my email inbox, it feels an obligation to say yes. I suppose it can also be another level of "not being able to say no". I took a break this weekend, did not go anywhere and just remained indoors the whole time. I thought over the event, and I will still go, mostly because they are quite short of people this time, and I don't want to back off on them. If it does not go well for me, then this one is on me, as I made the choice at the beginning without thinking it through. I should learn this lesson and not promise something out of my capability. But thank you for saying that liking kids or not does not determine the "goodness/badness" of my character; my inner child is really happy to hear that.

Decimal, I might be in too much a rush as you and San said. All those things happened within one week. I did absolutely nothing this weekend and slept through half of it. I am feeling a bit calmer now. I might try to limit the trials to once a week or every other week to keep the pace. It's like running; if I stops in the middle, then I may never resume, so I need to keep the momentum somehow. Thank you for saying it is brave; it means a lot to me, because that is usually not how others describe me.  :grouphug:

camille, suddenly it sounds like you've taken some of your power back in making such decisions, and i'm really glad to hear that.  i think that's one of the best things we can do.  and, it is also brave - i agree with d.r. about that.

sounds, also, like you needed that weekend to yourself, by yourself.  yay, you.  i don't think we always realize how fast we've been going until we truly slow down and give ourselves a break.  we can always get back on track when we're ready.

love and hugs, sweetie.  i think you're moving right along.

Thank you, San. I have been thinking over what you said about "taking some of the power back". Before you mentioned power, I thought I was merely taking some responsibility for my poor decision making process. It is quite counter-intuitive that holding myself accountable somehow helps me regain power instead of losing it. I am used to being shamed for making mistakes, no matter how little it is, and I think I also get scared of responsibility because they are interlinked. But maybe it is not supposed to be linked this way. I don't need to be shameful to fix my mistakes or to make matters better next time. The fear of both is just a very wrong conditioning that I experienced when I was little.

---------------------
I went to the volunteering event this weekend. I was paired up with another person, who was very enthusiastic around children, so I actually did not spend as much energy as I had expected. The other volunteer was very patient and helpful (I would say much more than I was). I do notice that her attitude slightly shifted depending on the kids' behavior. I just found it interesting (if not alarming) that my body is so tuned to pick up small inconsistency in human behavior. It is only natural for people to change their responses depending on who they are interacting with; I am pretty sure I do the same thing all the time too.

So why does it still stand out to me? I suppose I have a very weird if not wrong expectation when people say they love kids; the B/W thinking process my brain adopted translates the statement into "I love kids all the time, regardless when, where they are, what they do, who they are", which is obviously not the case and not what people mean. Another part of me also fear that when they claim their love, in reality it only applies to the kids who behave, but how well they behave is judged by the individual adults without a clear guideline, and to me that just does not have any good implications. Seeing the smallest bias on someone who genuinely cares about children kind of builds up my fear, because my brain is actively searching for such evidence. In a sense it is a rather self-fulfilled prophecy. So in the end, I am feeling this impossible mixture of gratefulness toward the other volunteer and a simultaneous urge to stay away (as my body translates inconsistency into danger).

Recently I have been experiencing more often such separation between my feelings/body and reasoning. I can reason with myself how my thinking process has a false assumption; I can even somehow build a conversation between parts of me that don't agree with each other, yet in the end "I" (the part that is feeling the most) will not change its response or thinking. It feels like my mind splits into halves or more with contradicting opinions, and the reasonable part cannot override or persuade the other part that is experiencing and responding. I thought I was getting better (I really hope this does not mean that I am going mad); or maybe this is the kind of hurdle I must overcome to enter the next stage of recovery?

camille, it sounds to me like pos. progress.  confusion, the way i see it, is a time of questioning.  we question what we've done in the past, and question what we want to do going forward.  we can even question what we're doing in the now as well.  it can certainly feel like we're split, but i don't believe it's a sign of madness.  i see it as 'i'm not where i used to be, but i'm not yet where i want to be', and it takes a lot of questioning to resolve that issue.

it also takes time and patience and determination.  it seems you're in transition of sorts, making different sense of what used to be concrete.  getting into the gray areas between the b/w thinking.  that whole thing about 'i love kids', yeah, it has a lot of layers to it.  perhaps you were noticing how the other volunteer responded to different situations because you were in a learning mode.

i think those levels are inherent in any blanket statement.  'i love dogs', for example.  ok, fine, but do you act differently with puppies, with adult dogs, with a dog whose charging you with teeth bared?  absolutely.  do you act differently when playing with a dog rather than with training it?  sure.  and, in the end, maybe you're a cat person and don't like dogs at all.  nothing wrong with that, either.

i think that's the beauty of accepting our individuality.  we don't have to like the same things.  we can accept that individuality both within ourselves and within others.  i don't believe there's something, including the very darkest of things, that everyone will agree on.  we're just us.

i love that you're questioning all this, analyzing, looking at it from different angles.  i think that's a good thing, and something we all can emulate.  it's possible that 2 + 2 = 5 in some alternate universe.  who knows?  just another possibility that may exist out there somewhere that another mind can make sense of.  just not ours.  that doesn't make it definitively right or wrong.

love and hugs to you, camille.

Thank you, San, again. I like how you describe this as a learning process. Being aware of common or natural response on others is still so bizarre to me. I have been treating B/W thinking as a "shortcut". If A, do this; else, do that. Nothing in between; it is supposed to be simple. It's not. I think I will just have to go through this newly gained consciousness, even though it is so painful sometimes. Hug you back.

----Descriptions of an EF, TW to be safe -----

Today I have another relapse. There is a startled voice in me that keeps begging, begging others to let it live. It feels threatened, that other people will murder it, will ignore it or torture it. I listen to the begging and don't know what to do. I think I am triggered by a farewell party thrown for a colleague. He is very talented and loved by many for his supportive personality. I stood at the edge of the room, looking at the crowd, thinking that I will never be able to get approved by so many people. My existence will always rely on the crowd, how they think of me, and I will not be able to "pull it off". I will not be able to survive.  I also ran into an old friend who has ghosted me. I suspect that it is because my symptoms got worse back when she still talked to me, but I could also be over-thinking. Maybe I'm just not interesting anymore; maybe she just doesn't want to tolerate me anymore. In any case, seeing her reminds me of how I failed "the test" again, that I couldn't hold someone's validation. And to the scared part in me, that means danger, that means being pushed closer to a hole that will erase my existence. I don't think people are inherently dangerous or threatening; they are just not very forgiving, but this alone can be deadly to me. I have nothing to back me up, other than the very little instrumental value I might have, but I am easily replaceable. To the others who don't need to use me, I almost don't exist, because I just cannot mingle, and I don't wish to anyway. In a sense, I chose this cursed road, but I still resent that there is no alternative I can see. Sorry for the messy rambling. I am not angry or even bitter; the voice in me is feeling scared for its life right now, and I have to feel with it, because it is bearing this for me.

camille, i hope that voice can be reassured that it will be taken care of, nurtured, and validated.  could it be your inner child that got triggered by the party?  something that happened in the past that caused or encouraged such feelings?  sending a loving hug filled with all that voice needs to not feel so afraid.  living in fear is a terrible feeling.

Hi Camille. Sorry but I don't have any wisdom to say for now.

I don't know about how other people think of you Cam, but I don't think you're replaceable. There's something unique about you that I can relate with your need to be affirmed and accepted in this forum. Other people fear this too, but something is different with you for some reason.

:hug:

San, I don't know how to calm my inner child (I guess I am truly terrible with kids). I just sit there and cry with them. I think I know which part of my past might have caused it. One may say that the past threat is no longer here anymore, but neither my inner child nor I see it that way. The past demonstrated the capability of human cruelty to me. How would I know when someone near me flips? Just recently I witnessed people changed their altitudes, to me and to others. They will promise one thing, withdraw, and come back again. They will be warm and welcoming and then cold and contemptuous. Part of me know that it is only natural that people have emotions, and they are not always able to control their immediate responses. Who am I kidding, aren't I like this all the time? But I am so scared of not being able to accommodate others all the time. And I think I already failed to do so. I am getting tired. I don't want to live like this, but what other choice is there?

I, inner child, inner critic, outer critic, all other voices, they are all me. I can't tell what is "me" what is not. We are all fearing, in different ways. I fear we will not survive. Inner child thinks they will get punished for not behaving. Inner critic thinks we are all disgusting and that is why we will not be tolerated. Outer critic think other people are dangerous and threats, but we cannot change that. I am feeling so hopeless right now.

Decimal, thank you for stopping by. I know it's been a hard time for you too.  Thank you for saying that I am relatable. It makes me feel it is still possible for me to be human.  :grouphug:

sweet camille, i think all those voices have become part of your inner dialogue because of hearing them over and over for so long, but i don't think all of them are 'you'.  ICr, to me, is always from someone else.  as someone said on another thread, we didn't look up self-disgust or any other neg. belief about ourselves, study the book, and decide that's how we wanted to feel about ourselves.  it was laid on us when we didn't have a choice.

i don't know if you're truly terrible with kids - you just may not have had anything pos. modeled for you about nurturing, calming, and comforting.  if you didn't get it or see it, how would you know?

i know that hopeless feeling, too.  i've felt it many times over the years.  happily, it has always eventually left.   i'm wishing the same for you.

love and hugs to you, camille.  we're all in this together.

Hi San,  thank you as always. I did not grow up completely without care, so I thought (still thinks) that it does not make much sense that I am so lost with my inner children. Recently I have reversed to self punishment again (although half unconsciously) by not allowing myself to sleep. It's not insomnia, because I can fall asleep as soon as I "let" myself. My T said I need to stop torturing myself like that, but I haven't been strong enough to fight it back. I am doing all the wrong things and I find myself constantly shamed and apologizing to either IC or ICr.

I have been trying to wait this EF out (two weeks now), but it hasn't stopped. I am having the constant paranoia/anxiety again. I feel I ruined every interpersonal relationship I have, and I have no idea how (or maybe I am just a bad/unpleasant person). I have been talking to people normally without breaking down or getting triggered in the middle, but there are still surges of self-shame and fear that everyone despises me.

The other day when I was cleaning my computer space, I found an old note written by myself a few months ago when I was in a particularly bad EF. When I read it again, it did not feel like anything that I put down myself, and for a while I felt a lot of compassion and empathy for the person who wrote it down. But now I am that person, once again. I hope the other me, the one that was strong enough to comfort my weak "copies" will show up to this me right now. It seems that I never learn. I never learn how to deal with these episodes. When I get stuck in a state like this, it feels I cannot get out. And when I do get out, I cannot remember how it happens, so I just wait. But sometimes time is not enough. This pain can be too much when it is prolonged.

camille, even if you don't see it or feel it, it seems to me that you've made some progress.  the fact that you could remember the person who empathized and had compassion for the struggling you and wishes she would show herself once again is a step taken in a healthy direction.

sometimes, i know, these seem like small steps, not worth our notice, but i believe they count.  acknowledging that compassionate part of you who showed herself when reading what you wrote is real, and, to my mind, it's big.  knowing she's there might give you a bit of a handle to hang onto. 

i hope this ef leaves as soon as it possibly can.  they are no fun, that's for sure.  hang tough, sweetie.  we're hangin' right beside you.  love and a hug full of that compassion and empathy that you felt.

Thank you, San. This EF is second longest one I have dealt with since I can identify an EF. I have probably had worse before, but I wasn't aware back then. A new wave is coming, and I am trying very hard to not let it start right now. Once it starts there is nothing I can do, and I don't want to go through it consecutively with no breaks in between.

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Edit: removed.

I think I will keep checking out. I am trying hard to not be dragged down. The weight can be unbearable.
I wish I were stronger. I wish my survival was a guarantee.
But at least now I know one thing. I want to live. All the voices that want me to give up, they are just exhaustion and despair. Need to keep reminding myself of that.
Good luck, my friends.