Messages

Phoebes I read your other blurb and wanted to say that comparing myself to others and the idea of what my life "should" be like is something I did a lot. I'm probably half where I am now because I had this idea of what I wanted my life to be like and then things sort of unravelled emotionally along the way, or I've been picking up the pieces and putting them back when they fall off. One thing for me that I've come to realize, and I'm no expert and still going through this, is that that idea of who I think I should be is the way the narcissistic abuse lives on through me. I was never could enough for them (there were four NPDs of varying flavours) and now I'm holding myself to that standard that I can never be good enough for anything else (or this, that -look a certain way for love, not be financially well off etc). It doesn't matter if those things are true or not because their ideas about my life still live on, and I think that maybe I think if I just fix this or that, I will have that love and be good enough. But it doesn't happen like that and it sucks. That questionable thing that I supposedly did wrong isn't going to be fixed because there was nothing wrong in the first place. This was all how they felt about themselves that they put into me and had me carry around because they couldn't deal with it, and I'm just beginning to figure out how to let go of that.

My m also flew into narcissistic rages and I'm probably hypervigilant because of that. People would tell me at work that I seem fearful despite half the things I've done with my life and how out of the box it is, which would probably freak a lot of people out. I think that seeming fearfulness is probably being wired from living with someone like that. I remember my m hitting me once because my eyes were laughing. Maybe they were, but it was probably just the part in me that exposed her as * (I know we're not supposed to swear on here, but it's really apt so remove it if needs be) that she couldn't handle, and there was nothing, is nothing wrong with that part. To me, it boggles the mind to try and untangle the level of self hatred that comes with something like that. I can't act like this because there's consequences, yet this is who I am and there's NOTHING I can do to change that. I told NARM t about this incident with my m recently and her reaction was that the level of self-policing needed because something as small as your eyes laughing is immense. So, everything I do/did became about "not upsetting the norm," whatever norm that is that I'm somehow upsetting. Somehow it's because I deviate from x that y is happening.

Anyways, these are just my family dynamics that I'm exploring and how it's related to me. I just wanted to say that I read what you wrote and I'm sorry that happened to you 

dolly

BB it's always a great feeling when things survive that you weren't expecting to. 

I had a little orchid that I bought on sale because it was battered. I didn't realize the roots were *that* bad and didn't think it would make it through the rot, but it's now pushing up a new leaf,

Hey Phoebes,

I don't think you're rambling and I think this stuff is confusing and we need a place to hash it out. Unfortuantely, for us, that didn't/couldn't come from our families, so we have to find some place to do it so we can make sense of it. I'm just beginning to understand how much there is in the family and I feel you that you couldn't talk to them about it. Mine is the same way, and even the cousins I have who get "it" only get it to a point I think, and aren't in therapy or digging themselves.

I'm sorry you had to go through that kind of "discipline."  I was also a child of the 80s and sad to say, this was was a lot more acceptable. I found myself trying to preface or dance around my m using the wooden spoon the other day with my therapist and I was like, wait a minute, why am I trying to downplay this stuff? Because it wasn't right. I feel like I remember physical punishment just being phased out of schools when I started. Anyways, this kind of discipline was praised in my family.

I hope you're able to come to some sort of peace about the text with your dad. I feel you about just letting it fade. In the past if I would have pressed an issue like this, it would have resulted in my getting very angry at their lack of understanding and then it becomes a drama with nothing actually changing, just me banging my head against a wall. But I wouldn't forget either that he crossed a boundary and wasn't on your side when you needed him. I hope that you can go out there and live your best life without them 

Sending you support,
dolly

Thank you all   

NK - it is an interesting viewpoint that it's not love when wanting to swoop in and protect, but that they do it because it's something that ultimately benefits them. Of course this is very obfuscated and probably doesn't make sense to a child's mind. I also can relate to the conflicting emotions that come along with it ie sometimes there are things (and earrings that we like, so we'll wear them etc).

This is a lot to process. I spoke about it with NARM T this week. I read her some of the things from the reports and she wanted me to go into more of the emotion and how I was feeling when I read it, and I think that part was a bit shut down because I felt it "messed me up" the day before. It's interesting what "messed me up" was tho. I felt like when I went to the gym I was less inclined to take peoples' passive-aggressiveness or be drawn into it. (It's interesting too because I think this gets tricky around men where anything "out of the ordinary" can be flagged by those more offended by strong women. Interesting because this is also apparently a family dynamic and am I acting out a female scapegoat role, if women are the scapegoat's of society let's say? Or is this something I'm sensitive to because of my family?). Anyways, I feel like my internal radar is set to measure any disturbance, and if there is a disturbance, I must be the cause, or acting too brashly etc and then look for evidence (peoples' rections etc) to confirm this. I think this is something a scapegoat would do.

I felt quite calm (numb?) after the session with NT and had something quite unexpected come up and had to change my plans for the afternoon. I didn't feel an internal sense of anxiety, or frustration, which I think I probably might have usually.  Yet, it also felt like there wasn't much of anything. I also told her that I felt sort of energized after the session. I took a different way back home because I had been thinking about this restaurant there for a while, and thought it would be a good chance to stop in after I did my unexpected errand. Again, no panic, not much of anything when I think normally I would be worrying about managing, or having parts of my life being "seen." Nor was there any reprimand to myself for doing for doing something like this. I didn't compare it to something, or think about someone's reactions to it, which I think I do (but don't realize I'm doing it as well).

I felt like I got "pulled" out of this state after being in it for several hours by a man on the sidewalk who seemed like he wanted my attention. But it wasn't that he wanted my attention, it was the look of hurt/sadness that happened when it felt like I wasn't giving it to him (or that maybe he imagined something I was thinking - who knows). It was like a moment of misunderstanding/disconnection with someone that made me lose connection with myself I think. Perhaps on some level I didn't give them the validation (?) what they wanted and I felt bad, or that I hurt them (?). So, all of a sudden the familiar push/anxiety came back. It also sort of made me aware, and am starting to become more aware, of this push (self-hatred?) to not connect with people around me, that he "wanted" something from me and I worry about my ability to give people something, or don't want to. Again, I don't know if it'll make sense to people, but this is familiar to me and also seems like it was a thread in my family? That my gm lacked emotional involvement with people, and perhaps this push is me blocking out something (parts of me) or is the feeling of having to replicate that pattern, or the resistance to replicating it? Maybe the numb feeling is the taking on of family stuff?

As an aside, I didn't feel like I was so hard on myself at the gym the next time I went. Well, I don't think it's completelyy conscious, just this push that's there, and underneath it I think is the need to be a certain way.

I've also been thinking a lot about the something Jay Reid said in the Scapegoating book, which was that you need to break the narcissist's rules. Even writing that just makes me aware of how many "rules" I feel like is placed on my behaviour that I've carried on just doing. I can't do that or they will get upset and not love me. I don't want to do that, I want to be loved for who I am. How can that happen when I'm (subconsciously) taking on and dancing around all this "stuff" (likes, wants, etc of what kept me "loved" as a child). So, I think this is part of the "messed up" feeling as well, and that by going back into and becoming aware of what it was actually like, that I was used to make someone feel better, and not just "used" but a crisis and what that crisis was that was just sort of overwritten and made about someone else's feelings and their "love" for me, is quite rule breaking in itself. It's like that "experience" was taken away from me out of "protection" and someone else's ideas for my life? The word crisis is also interesting and I wonder if I became numb around the unexpected errand because it was a "crisis?"  I think my role has been about managing other peoples' reactions to drama/crisis in my family. I was the calm, collected one.

I feel like I'm rattling on but I think it helps me to put this stuff into words around my internal state because I think that opportunity was often taken away (and even with t sometimes I feel frustrated if I can't relate my experience, or if she jumps in and repackages it or something). I'm just sort of seeing the immensity of how much was taken away, or "brushed over."

[no other cause evokes the effective coping behaviour]

Ok, so let's go.

I like the idea that the scapegoat is the truth teller or breaker of generational bonds because that's what it feels like to me. I was shut down in my family because no one wanted to hear what I had to say. They had been through enough and they wanted their nice, peaceful new life (fantasy) in Canada without processing anything that happened to them. That was the Old Country, this was new life. My gf even had the family stop speaking the mother tongue because they were in Canada now, and they should speak English. Look at all the things they had, what they had accumulated, how much better they were doing (they would tell family back home) than if they had lived under the Russians. We should be grateful for everything we have because it could be so much worse. True? Wow, such a big part of me wants to believe this I think because I'm going to have to deal with the pain of everything they didn't want to face, but aside, it's not my stuff. I wonder if this is what bonded them together because oh my god, how they fought.

I haven't dug much into the relationship between my gm and gf (I can feel the tension rising in my neck as I write this). I  thought about it the other day and there was a lot of conflict. I think I remember actual fights from around 2ish when I lived in the house with them, but it's vague. Later on the fighting wasn't even fighting, but people being horrible to each other. Or my gf just criticising my gm and everything she did. My gm I think would fight with him to try and get him to see the validity of what she was doing, for acceptance (hmmm sounds familiar), but it didn't work. I would hear of my gm's struggles that were a result of my gf (usually around money) and what a hard time she was having. So, I feel like young me wanted to stick up for my gm because of everything she was going through, and we did have a great time, and where I imagine that a lot of the guilt I felt comes from. This was the surface. There were also the "fights" that I was told about where my gf went out a bought a sports car because he thought she was cheating on him. She said she never did, but what the psychologist report said was that she never really gave herself to him either (and is possibly creating tensions).

So, again this is achingly familiar, but my gm kept going back to my gf despite how he treated her, expecting a different result. I guess this is what I knew. He would critisize her weight and the way she spent money (again, very familiar voices that come up for me that I'm not even really aware of just background stuff). She felt like she needed him and the money etc because her own career wasn't progressing with what she wanted to do was having problems. What I found out from the psychologists report was that she wasn't really putting in the work because I don't think she felt good enough about herself to do it. She didn't want to cold call people and be rejected. I think on some level she felt she needed my gf and to be rescued. I also saw this in an IFS with myy m where the mom part seemed happy when I gave her a prince charming. I always thought that choosing unavailable people had something to do with how my m treated me, but I can see this in how my gf treated my gm too, and how she kept trying to go back to him.

Some parts that stood out are:

1974 - "She has had boyfriends during this particular marriage (WHAT?) but has not been able to commit herself deeply enough to any man to enjoy sexual relationships."

1976 - "In group she claimed that her self esteem was constantly threatened by her relationship with her demanding and domineering husband"

"has never been able to enjoy sex easily and feels inadequate as a woman in this regard"

"She appears to have fears of being hurt and will therefore not allow herself to become intimately emotionally involved. To maintain complimentarity she has chosen men who are possessive, domineering, and extremely jealous. This characteristic response on their part is continuously provoked by (gm) who does not become emotionally involved and who maintains a certain tension in the relationship by rebelling against the males' demands for compliance. At least this is how she pictures the relationship and would be interesting to see how (gf) reponds." This could honestly be written about me and also sounds like the rejection wound that I have begun reading about.

"able to think psychologically to some extent and that the man she married resembles her father" (just as my sf resembles my gf; my dad was sort of an anomaly but could have a temper)

1981 - "After on-going separation in 1977, but have had an intermittent relationship ever since. Although, they retain separate households, her husband spends a lot of his time with her and she states that she is a "sucker" and puts up with this. Financially he is better off and she seems to be losing out, but he prefers it this way.

It just makes me question the "helplessness" that I was so sympathetic to as a child and the part of me too that wanted to rescue her (and my m I think). Reading this now, I think but she came from a strict father, married a man that hit her child, so she left, and then married another strict man. Shouldn't I be syympathetic to someone living out these patterns of abuse? I mean yes, but I think she did these things for herself, for the life she wanted. It's also the language in the first report that stands out to me. She describes my biological gf as "an extremely poor provider" and that she felt demeaned (he was possessive and jealous) "even though he worked as a labourer and a poor one at that because he was so weak and skinny." She also describes my sgf as "a heavy drinker, crude, and in some respects intellectually inferior to her." What's interesting is that an earlier report states how much she had been drinking (like six bottles of beer/day). It's the subtle criticisms.

The reports seem to follow her going further and further into depression? Or rather, not really changing tact with my gf or adjusting her behaviour to an extent. "(GM) keeps naively thinking that (gf) will come through for her when he learns of her plight" ie rescue her.

So, bizarrely after years of tension, criticism and fighting, my gm and gf became friends again when I was about 14/15 and after she had remarried my sgf. When my gf was dating someone and they would come to visit my gm would start talking about how if he married her there wouldn't be anything for us kids etc, and I think trying to subtly manipulate things. This seemed so normal, but writing this can see that it wasn't. I feel like I was somehow a part of my gf's relationships. He also had opinions about things I wore and didn't I want to wear something more feminine (at the height of grunge in the 90s).

What I initially started writing/thinking about was how I remember the reports discussing the tension in the house, or as my gm described it, a change came over my gf when my m started dating. I didn't remember this correctly, and think the jealousy that was happening was the result of my gm, which sort of makes sense with the "boyfriends" comment above. My gm had always painted my gf as being irrationally jealous and that this wasn't grounded in reality, but that doesn't seem like the whole truth. The report actually talked about about tension with my gf because my m had a steady boyfriend at the age thirteen, which my gm thought was ok (because she had informed my m extensively about sex - seems like a boundary crossing?) but my gf did not. My gm "felt she could trust the girl," though I have to say, I sort of side with gf here and there should've probably been some boundaries. It also says that "as soon as the marriage ceremony took place, he changed his tune and became jealous of the daughter and they have been in constant conflict," and I wonder if it meant my m or gm? If it's my m, I feel like my gm is painting herself as an innocent proxy, just standing by and watching this unfold? That my m was somehow the creator of tension in my gm's relationship with her husband? How does a five year old be in conflict with an adult man? If it's talking about my gm and gf being in conflict, then why didn't she leave if she was protecting her child? If this man was as jealous as she said, and she wanted to protect her child, then why not start over? Also, interesting too is the idea of conflict popping up after what I have been talking about.

The report also talks about my gm protecting her brother as a child and my m from her biological father and later from my gf, and then says that (gm) rose magnificently to the occasion trying to protect me when CSA was thought to be going on.  But it wasn't really protecting? She did not allow the doctor to step in and call child social services because my m was neglecting me, and said that she would take care of me. Why couldn't I have gone to live with my dad then? Why didn't she speak to my dad about it? I'm also reminded of the time my mom called my gm and drunkenly asked her why she didn't do anything (about a neighbour (?) that abused her).

TW

I then had to live with a sf who emotionally abused me before I made the decision to leave around 10 years old after living with them for two years, and with my m alone for 2 (years) where she would leave at night to go to the bar and do drugs in the room next door while I played in the room with the woman's daughter. My gm told me I could call her I think. I came to my gm's house soaking wet after having had to run four or five kms through slush because my sf kept telling me I was fat (well my m and I) when I was 8 but what was done?

End TW

But she was "protecting" me. The reports say that she fought with my m over neglecting me.

(I started writing this yesterday and things got a bit much. Maybe the mask cracked open too much. I wanted to write about the report where they suspected CSA because of how I behaved with a boy at the babysitters. What got me was the way it was used to mobilze my gm and give her something to fight for. Or that's how it was written.

"(Gm's) mood may be good because of (rather than in spite of) the crises in her life. The crisis with (me) was particularly instrumental in mobilizing (gm). She rose to the occasion magnificently. I suggested to (gm) that she try to organize her life around (me) as it is obvious that nothing else in (gm's) life at the moment has the significance that the grandchild has for (gm) and no other cause evokes the effective coping behaviour."

So, me being in that situation was used as something to make her feel better. Maybe more so, that being "sick, in trouble, down, failing etc etc" is something that makes her feel better and able to cope with her life. She wasn't going to make any changes but my messed up life helped her cope. How messed up is that? I don't think that's how the psychologist intended it, but I also don't think they were looking at the bigger picture and wanted to "help." Somehow it became the drama of the moment. The next report it wasn't written about. What was written was that she allowed my gf to move in with her so he wouldn't kick my m, m's boyfriend and me out of the house. He also says that he only offers advice and support, meaning my gm was not willing to make any behavioural changes. So, this crisis was just absorbed and "went away." I think reading these things rally messes up my "memory" of how things were (that fantasy bond connection to my gm; the idea of her as comfort and safety), which feels very familiar to this process - absorbing and forgetting and on to the next crisis, her crisis)

This is a bit all over the place now I think, but I'm interested in that the rejection wound seems to be playing out in me again, likely as a bigger part of an intergenerational scapegoat dynamic? I do feel like this "stuff" isn't mine. So how and why am I holding onto it? I think I would be running around in circles if I didn't have these reports. Is she a victim of her time when one couldn't be an independent woman? Or did she want a lifestyle and to not deal with the pain of being on her own?

My parents did not ask me any further questions or protect me or cease to take me there, so I felt very crazy and undeserving of protection. After all, I had disrespected my elders who went through so much . Then, in the years to come, if anything came up about my go my dad would often say " you just don't understand him like I did." Yes that is the level of protection and gaslighting. Honestly, how I'm still in contact I have no idea. It's always been like this just insane amount of denial.

I'm sorry you had to go through that and that your parents didn't protect you. I came across this book title called Scapegoating in Families: Intergenerational Patterns of Physical and Emotional Abuse by Vimala Pillari and was intrigued at how this pattern could play out generationally. Something else I read was that scapegoats are the secret keepers/cycle breakers in the family. I guess when you start to look at it in that context, it becomes less crazy making perhaps it's not all about me and what did I do wrong that they didn't love me etc. Not saying it excuses what happened in any way, and not really sure what the antidote to everything is. I guess it sort of sums up why there's a part of me that feels it "has to take everything on" because that was my  role.

The other thing you said is yes if I just tried to be my own person, I was seen as rebelling and they doubled down on the control. Especially my narcissistic mother. We are talking about things like wanting to wear cut off shorts. Oh the horror. wanting to skateboard. what will people think? Wanting to learn how to play multiple instruments. How dare I disrupt the noise level in the home. One of my problems is I never rebelled at all or spoke up out of sheer terror. And now I am an older grown woman still feeling like I never got to do the things I wanted. I wasn't rebelling. I was prevented from being myself. There's a big difference. I'm sure you can relate.

Rebelling is a really interesting word and it's also interesting how loaded words can be. I did feel like I was rebelling if I did anything, and to a certain extent I still align with skateboarders and the "counterculture." However, I also got straight A's and it wasn't like I was a bad person, or that skateboarders are "bad" people. I think because of the history of my family and what they went through, there were very real consequences for speaking out ie the Russian police visited my great grandfather after my grandmother left the country. She rebelled against her parents wishes and things like this happened, or it was an unsafe environment to rebel and you would disappear in the night kind of thing. Her family was persecuted for their heritage after WWI too. I guess being a rebel meant fighting for yourself, but under dangerous conditions. They still carried those ideas to me in childhood and was told things like, "you don't know the way the world works."

I don't blame you for trying to speak with your dad and have a connection, this is something we're born and wired to do. We need that support to survive as children. I kept going back to my family as well thinking they would understand, or looking for that understanding in romantic interests. It's a big, deep feeling when I realize that it's not going to come from them, but from me, and I'm only just beginning to recognize and understand that. You're not alone in that.

Sending you support,
dolly

The person I told about the text I sent were having a chat, and I said I wonder if there's something in my shadow self that's bringing out this felt antagonism in people/like what am I doing on my part? They said maybe I need to stop taking on responsibility or trying to appease when things go wrong and it just makes me not want to tell people things. T is similar, and feels like I'm blaming myself, but the rejection wound comes FROM me. I'm playing these scenarios out with other people, and there is something that I'm doing to a degree that gets me involved in these situations (though am trying to understand the antagonism and conflict part).

Responsibility is/was a tricky thing growing up. I don't think a lot of people took it (m, gf) or over identified? (gm where everything was her fault and she would sit in depression yet not take care ofof, or responsibility for herself, which was somehow left up to us covertly?). I definitely felt like I had to take it on, get these grades etc, do more. Yet on some level, felt too, that this stuff wasn't mine.

With that woman at the gym, I don't have a conscious feeling that I did something wrong. In fact, it's the opposite. I've been minding my own business. Yet, maybe subconsciously, I feel that there's something in my that pulls these people to me like repeating my m's behaviour and the dynamic we had. This is what I was trying to explain to this person. I haven't been  "nice" to her (and him), I've been a civil, human being, which is what I'm supposed to be (and try to be). What I wonder/think is if people like this can sense or are aware of the dynamic/power imbalance etc (or that I'm seemingly full of caca), and want to challenge me, and then the "fight" comes out? Is it so pervasive in my being that I did something wrong (and was the scapegoat), that it doesn't matter what I feel I'm putting out because that's still my subconscious belief? I think I do still question the things I do on some level, and at work last week I felt like I was starting to "absorb" responsibility when things felt like they were going sideways. I consciously thought, I'm not going to be a scapegoat. That being said, it is adult to take responsibility for your part in things, and I don't want to be like my family who didn't.

I'm guessing this is related to the fantasy bond and the idea of who I had to be in order to survive. On the one hand, there is an adult who knows about my family and what was going on, and is doing the work. On the other hand, I'm realizing that there are probably other parts living in the past with things they had to do. Telling someone to "stop being nice" is like expecting me to understand another language. I don't think it computes with certain parts of my brain, and I'm not going to be hard on myself for not understanding that or feel shame because it just speaks to the messed up things I had to go through.

edit: I think there's a difference between actual, real responsibility and the responsibility I was conditioned to take on. I think the former involves "waking up," or seeing how things were in the family and not "protecting" it as a scapegoat is conditioned to do. I think the difficulty is acknowledging the pain and reality that comes along with that, but I'm not a child anymore. Maybe by giving up those other responsibilities (burdens) of false love, it will be easier to take on the ones that matter and that I need to.

[right]

I went through a lot of grief over this a couple of years ago and came out the other end pretty detached. But it still gets me sometimes, very deeply. He was there and didn't protect. He was fun and talented but didn't spend time with me, teach me anything or include me. I love music and art, too. Why didn't my musician artist dad teach me or validate me? Not a single picture on the fridge my whole childhood. His pristine paintings covered the walls.

I'm trying to have compassion for the last parent I speak to, but when I remember certain things, and when he does this type of thing (by far not the first of this nature), it wrecks me, honestly.

Hey Phoebes,

I really get what's going on for you rn. I couldn't understand how my gm (and gf) who told me they loved me could just let my m treat me the way she did and not stick up for me. Not to mention going behind my back and trying to get my m and I back together and inviting her to my university graduation when I specifically didn't. So, they told me they loved me and when I called them out on behaviour like this, it would be but why are you mad at me? Well, why can't you listen to me and yes, I do have that right to be heard. It's not all about you. For me, this was crazy-making, really. It defied reason. Like you, when I would tell other people about her behaviour, they would say well she just really loves you, and all that "it's family" garbage. What it sounds like with your dad to me, is that he had a public persona that everyone liked and served him well, which was good for him. It didn't matter what happened to you and it should have 

What I'm realizing is that there is a part of me, very young, that formed an idealized image of them and this is what helped me survive. Not just an idealized image, but if I do x, then I will receive this love. Now, as an adult, I'm looking for this in other people, but am only just starting to realize that I'm not going to get it. This is a fantasy "love" that I needed to believe about my family and the person I thought I had to be (and what my life should look like) in order to survive. I think it comes from such a young age as well and that's what makes it so hard. I was in a fantasy bond since birth with people I thought loved me, but they were incapable of loving me. All this time I was just trying to do the "thing" whatever it was, so that I could finally be like other people and things would "work out" and I too would be thriving etc. While inside, I still feel it's hard for me to find things that I do well for example. To me, it just shows how strong their voices, and that bond, still is that I can't see the good things I'm doing, or what I've accomplished.

I did pick through a bit of the Jay Reid book and it's tricky because I think it applies to, or illustrates, very typical narcissistic behaviour ie very blatant putting down etc. For me, this applies to my m, but not my gm or gf. However, covert narcissism (gm) and moral narcissism (gf - but can't remember Dr. Ramani's exact term) is trickier to spot. So, I can see why it took so long to work this out, and how under the radar it is. What he did say that sort of clicked was the "narcissist is always above you." I'm only beginning to understand how this applies to my gm and gf and me. Both my gm and gf had lived through the war and came to Canada as refugees. There was always a sense that they had lived through so much, what right did I have to assert myself or question them? I was here because of them, enjoying the life I had. How could I rebel and not do what they say ie simply be my own person? I felt guilty on some level every time I would try, and more so too because my gm seemed so selfless and "giving me everything." But every child has a right to exist and I didn't ask to be born and don't owe them anything (a friend of mine said this to me and it blew my mind, like it was dangerous. It shows me again, how deeply ingrained this stuff is). There's also a lot of cultural beliefs around "family" and how children should "behave" for me as well and as a kid I needed to do all this because it was "safe" and I would surive.

I don't want to make this about me, just pointing out my circumstances and why it was/is so hard to pick out. You're not alone, and it's not you, it's them. Really.

Sending you support and a hug if that's ok 
dolly

Thanks Blueberry, I will look into giving that a try. Right now I've covered them over with some old trellis and hope it gets the hint!

Thank you NK  Don't worry about not responding. You need to take care of yourself at the mo.  I am beginning to read about the rejection "wound." I don't think it's an official psychological term per se, but feels very valid in that I'm expecting rejection, so I want to know where I stand etc. Unfortunately, I think this is interpreted in dating as wanting everything too fast, too clingy, too much etc., and that push becomes that I'm chasing or will be jealous, needs x kind of relationship etc. Obviously, there's all the advice that says, "the right person will understand, whatever," but it hasn't really been my experience. Maybe because I don't even understand it myself. I guess the irony is that adult me doesn't expect those things or that I want to get married now, or that I know it takes time getting to know someone and to wait and see how things progress, and that's something I want too. I guess there's a part that needs a kind of certainty but adult me knows that I can't expect it from other people and so I get into this push pull dynamic? Someone mentioned object constancy on another forum and I have been trying to read more about that as well. As an infant you need someone there for you, and I think in a rejection wound, they weren't, or it becomes difficult when there is no object constancy ie certainty. So, from an infant we have experienced a lack of object constancy and that thing/person will not return (or that maybe we are not safe without someone there/ and vice versa better on our own as we know we are protected/watching out for ourselves).

So, I had a big long post written and then *poof,* computer froze, and now it's all gone. I really wish it hadn't have done that as I felt like I was in the zone! I want to try and piece together a bit of what it said. I think I'm starting to look more at how conflict is showing up in my life as well as how being the family scapegoat is manifesting as well. Someone mentioned a book called Scapegoating in Families: Intergenerational Patterns of Physical and Emotional Abuse and I'm interested to see how this plays out in my family.

I was thinking last night about the experiences I wrote about and it felt like it was being made aware in a different part of my brain, like these are not foreign experiences, and yes, they actually happened to me. I feel like it was more clear this morning and now they've kind of gone back into that, it wasn't me part of my brain, but I think it's good to try and become more aware, and have that feeling stay of how much conflict was around in my early life, and I guess how I structured my inner experience to deal with that. How and why does this seem to keep appearing in my life where there are conflicts with other people? And I'm in the position of feeling overpowered and that I need to protect myself? I guess that was a fundamental aspect of growing up.

I've written before about passive aggressiveness from other people and how it feels like other people want to "push me around." Internally, I feel like I need to match that I guess, and need to fight like with like or there will be a winner and a loser. However, as I was typing it out before, the concept kind of reminded me of a child's magical thinking, and I guess it probably is. I feel like this is how some parts feel like they need to defend themselves.

Last week in the gym a woman was really short with me because I was having a conversation and she wanted to use the weights. I was chatting with someone about physio and shoulder rehab and the tone didn't really merit the situation of her asking if I was done. I've seen this woman around and from the beginning I got competition and she's have it in for me vibes. So, I've tried to avoid her, but also not let her push me around. Do I want to build bridges with people like that? No. Do I want to try to understand people like that? Also no. Is it a secure response? Probably not. I guess this is one response. In the past, I would have tried to be "nice," but I don't really feel like that solves the problem either (probably because it's people pleasing?) So, on the one hand I do feel like my response could be perpetuating the behaviour, but I also feel the need to defend and protect myself because ignoring them doesn't seem to stop the passive-aggressiveness. I don't know, maybe I'm not ignoring them hard enough as a part of me is still worried about my "safety." I find myself in situations like this a lot with people who are passive-aggressive and act lovely to other people, but treat me a different way. Usually with other women and I guess there is something in there about how I grew up. It fills me with rage though when people behave like this at what feels like my expense and I wonder how similar it is to the rage part of my m that would come out.

Anyways, the next time I saw the man I was chatting with the first thing he said was, what was that? meaning her reaction. I felt like it backed up my experience that it wasn't in my head or exaggerated. What's interesting is that I tried to make a joke about it and said I guess some people don't like that I'm good at what I do, and in doing that, I made it my fault in a way. ie there's something about me that draws that attention from other people, but I guess that's what a scapegoat does. They are responsible for the bad behaviour of the people around them, or, as in my family, when things go wrong. (I also guess I feel like people like that are let off the hook a lot about how they treat me. Maybe I am looking for someone to stand up for me and protect me, which didn't happen growing up and why stuff like this keeps "finding" me, but perhaps this is "child consciousness"). I guess I had to make the conflict about me/my fault in order to survive it growing up, and looked for a fantasy bond/rescue to be loved etc to deal with it too.

Ok I think that somewhat of a summary of what I wrote before.

Hi Phoebes,

I'm sorry you had to get that text, that's crap. I think you're right that's it's so on the nose and he's not choosing to see what's in front of his face even after you told him. I hope you're able to have some distance and see the situation for what it is though I empathsize with how hard it is and how much it just sucks to go through it. But it's a testament I think to all the work you're doing that you can see the dynamic for what it is and that he's not empathisizing with you at all. I hope you can be there for you in a way that they weren't.

I was reading another post recently about what are thee benefits of growing up as a scapegoat in the family, and someone commented how they were able to leave and how much better they're doing now (not that you're a scapegoat). I just felt like for me, it can be so hard to see that yes, I actually am doing better now than I was when I was with my family, and as much as child consciousness me yearns for that connection and protection, adult consciousness me can see that they would've never given it to me no matter what I said. But those are my experiences.

Sending you support and, from me, I'm not a fan of mother's day
dolly

Thank you Chart    I think it's such a deep thing that we're not aware of how that kind of attachment trauma comes into our lives. I think this is why I found the NARM book so interesting in that it goes into how that kind of trauma shows up in our lives through connection and disconnection. I'm trying to pay attention more to my triggers and think there is one that happens under the radar through perceived (whether real or not) rejection. What I found especially pertinent in the book that I've mentioned before, is that it doesn't matter if our conscious mind is aware of something or not ie that person not coming to the gym after I feel like we had a connection isn't about me, but my body takes it as a rejection and I go into shut down (fearful avoidant style), and my emotions along with it. I'm really trying to understand connection and disconnection more and I guess be more present when this stuff does come up.

I'm feeling really spun out over this situation with this person. It's a long story but I feel like I ended up sort of "forcing" the issue because I couldn't handle the feelings that were coming up when they were around, but didn't say anything. So, I asked them out for coffee. They said they had a lot going on but could meet the following week. I ended up seeing them twice in the gym and was triggered that they weren't being up front. I asked a couple different people what they thought. One said he could be busy, I don't know what's going on in his life and the other to ignore him because it seems like he's messing around. The thing, or tricky part for me, is that those emotions become overwhelming and I don't have a lot of space to just let things be and see what happens the following week. So, I sent a text which mayy have seemed kind of crazy to someone that doesn't know me, saying that I would like to get to know him and I just appreciate people who are up front (and not giving a slow fade in more or less words). Having to give that person the benefit of the doubt is so difficult for me. He said no and I sort of became defensive about called out his behaviour.  No reply. I did acknowledge, and was the start of a lot of awareness about the situation and how I was projecting a lot of things from the beginning. I sort of accepted it and was fine with the no, was busy with work and the next time it felt like there were vibes when I saw him. Cue the feeling of rejection that showed up, or preceived rejection. Again, just not really being able to sit with the situation. I was busy with work and didn't see them much and then tried to make eye contact just to see if we're cool. The lack of communication spins me out.

So, yesterday I was there and they came in (sort of stealthily where they would have had to go behind me when it's just much easier to go in front) and sat like 10 feet away on their phone, not working out in a sort of open space in the gym. I'd seen them there before stretching when they would go play racquet sports in other parts of the gym, but never when they were in the gym gym. It sort of spun me out, but I ignored them and left to go stretch. When I came back in we made eye contact and they sort of smiled or seemed open, but I felt shut down and went to go do my thing. This very much feels like the dynamic all along. They did like two exercises on the machines and left, sort of unusual. I felt off and left early. I felt like this behaviour is crazy making for me, and again, I have a really hard time sitting with these emotions. Why? It feels like there is some sort of antagonism that I have to fix, or that I don't want to continue, or will come back on me. I fully get if this person doesn't want to be with me romantically and I guess the lack of communication on their part is evidence of that, and someone told me to just let them do their thing. However, it just also feels like a grey area because I do feel like I was a bit intense, and it's like I can't fend off these feelings of overwhelm about it. I texted them friends? to try and smooth things over. Of course, I haven't heard anything back. I was hoping, but don't really expect to I guess. There is a part of me that says, screw him, but there's also another part that's mired down in something.

Someone was asking me why I feel like I need to reach out and smooth things over, and I explained because there have been a couple guys where it seemed like the interest was there, they didn't do anything, so I moved on. However, it was like they then became antagonistic for me doing that and passive-aggressive. I guess to me it feels like messed up power dynamics? One of them I don't really understand because they have a partner and baby now, but saw them last week and there was a lot of passive-aggressiveness. Perhaps there's something in my behaviour that I'm not seeing that is precipitating this? However, what I realized last night is that the whole situation is sort of reminiscent with what happened with my mother. I feel like maybe I rejected them, or just moved on because there wasn't anything coming from their side (ie pursuit which maybe is ill treatment in a way, or not being valued and seen like I matter). It seems, or I'm interpreting, that there's then these feelings of hostility because I guess I hurt them, or rejected them on some level (though tbh I don't see it when they never made a move, maybe because I shut it down in a way by thinking that they will never want me/be interested in me. I think I have a rejection wound), and now I am being punished for going my own way, or to have my own life. This sounds like a repeat of my mom punishing me and telling me I abandoned her after I went to go live with my dad because of the way I was being treated.

The whole things just feels really confusing and emotional and as much as I would like to smooth things over, be diplomatic, and have it end well, I have the feeling that that's not what's going to happen. It feels like trying to stop a runaway train (maybe slight hyperbole) but it's bringing up all those chaotic feelings again. I guess the best thing I can do is to try to be diplomatic.

What's coming up for me is how much conflict is really in my life that I seem to suppress.

Poss TW

Threatening to call the police if my m hit me that Christmas; dealing with a sf who is trying, well succeeding, in cheating me out of my inheritance and taking him to court for that, which I decided to stop because of how on my own I am in my family; taking my landlord to court for disrepair; calling out the bully at work who is trying to say that it wasn't him, he's innocent; calling out someone for sexual harassment. Petty behaviour from romantic interests and other women - the woman at the gym who I now call skeletor, that seems to have had it in for me since day one. It's always some competition or another, with everyone wanting to win and me just feeling like I need to protect myself.

End TW

Why is everything so heavy when I feel like I'm just standing up for myself? Does it go back to how much conflict was in my relationship with my m and I feel like I constantly had to stand up to her/protect myself?

TW

The memory popped up of when I was 14 and my m pinned me to the floor and told you're not stronger than me yet because I wanted her vintage top from when she was a teenager, and I don't think I took it off. Or I was protesting. We always fought, or I fought (for myself? to be heard?) and then had to concede because she would just try to overpower me. I guess on some level I'm still fighting to be heard and that sucks. What happens if I stop fighting to be heard? All these feelings come flooding back in, or am just met with the vastness of having people in my life who are unable to love me and who feel like they're able to oveerpower me?

End TW

Long post, just needed to vent all this because the emotional side of trying to understand connection/lack of connection with someone that seemed interested, or dealing with these situations is something I would like to, and feel I need to, start unpacking. Though I do feel shame in sending the texts and not being able to just let it go 
   

I bought some Turk's Cap lily bulbs this fall and potted them in small containers on my indoor window sill with some mix from my outdoor containers that, FYI/TMI, the neighbour's cat has been using as a au plain air loo. I wanted to see if I could force the bulbs for indoor planting. Having no idea what I was doing, and lacking follow through, they sat on my kitchen counter until March (?) when I decided to plant them.

I've developed a collection of what I'll call rebel flowers/plants. I don't really want to call them weeds as one as these pretty pink flowers. Weeds suggests something that's not supposed to be there that you have to take out and kill, when all along, they have just been floating on the wind, trying to find a home. Maybe I feel some affinity and connection to things that survived like that. Who am I to be a judgemental gardener? Something that I'm now learning through one of Patrick Teahan's videos was probably the result of a boundary crossing growing up.

I didn't think the lilies would grow, but maybe a month ago, a shoot started. Everything else looked like they were buried in this brown muck. Somewhere inside, I think I reprimanded myself (oh those familiar voices) for not knowing what I was doing and feeling like I failed; I could have been better, done better. I noticed about a weeek and a half ago that more shoots have started. It is not a lost cause (oh look, another phrase my gf used to call me). I guess sometimes things just need a little space and time to grow.

Something that's been coming up or more apparent lately is this internal sense of panic when something needs to be done, or there's something unexpected to deal with ie problem etc. I guess in the past there was always procrastination and reluctance to deal with it, or frustration, but now I'm feeling the panic when it happens. I'm guessing this has to do with having to deal with things that were beyond my scope growing up, nit being adequately parented and given age appropriate task, given criticism when I would make a mistake etc.

But what I'm also noticing is that I think there is an internal "fantasy" of things are ok, and this is how I am ok. So, when something comes up and shatters that in a sense, feelings break through. I feel like I'm becoming aware of how that internal sense of fantasy, or bond, maybe goes beyond just romantic interests, but is in being a certain way, or having a life that is a certain way etc. When I was discussing things with NARM t she said there is a sense of "I'm ok" that I have, which I think is true to a degree. However, I think it's I'm ok when I'm on my own and am involved in this world/sense of safety that I have somehow created. When connection (intimacy), or something else comes into the mix, it throws it into disarray I think. We also discussed how every time I find a bit of space inside, the impending doom, or critical voice pops up that something isn't safe etc, which is what this feels like. I have a bit of space (and idea that things are safe) then something intrudes and all of a sudden it's not safe.

These are not life and death situations either, this is being called about a payment that didn't go through for some reason, or having to provide a bank statement for a refund etc. On the other hand, when I am in the "right frame of mind," I can do all these things and handle them etc. I just think something shifts in my internal world.

I had a session with NARM t and discussed the above --the idea of connection and what might be holding that back; the bond that still exists to my family probably in the form of a fantasy of wanting them to love and accept me on some level, and the idea of being an unloved child (or as she put it, that they weren't capable of loving me). It was quite heavy with a lot of emotion and I guess I am beginning to process the grief behind all this, which I don't know if I've done before. I guess on some level I always held out hope of receiving this "love," in the form of coming from another person. I just wanted to not acknowledge those feelings because 1) it feels quite directionless and vast when they come up to be "unloved" and 2) it's hard to orient myself and know what I want/where I'm going/how to relate/connect to other people when I'm aware of them. I guess this is because I never had a formed "self" as a child (not Self as in IFS Self).

NARM is interesting in that it tracks emotional changes that happen in a session. For example, as I was explaining these things, and how it was to grow up around my gf where everything had to be done according to him, and if not, you were hopeless if you made a mistake etc., my voice was quiet like I was struggling to talk. I then had a moment of feeling like I was manipulating the situation, and "performing" all of this, trying to get attention. My voice became deeper and t said I crossed my arms over my chest. When she asked me what had happened, I told her what was going on inside my head, but I don't know where this stuff was coming from? Did I think I was performing because when I was sick as a child my m would ask me if I really needed to be in the hospital, as if I was making it up? Maybe I did on some level to try and get basic attention that I was otherwise denied. (Though I did have quite bad asthma at times). So, now my response is to shut down emotion/connection where I feel like I have to deal with these things on my own? Ironically, or similarly, this was the issue that triggered me a lot with my gm where she would get sick (though not take care of herself), and we would have to rescue her. I did feel like my attention was manipulated.

There was another instance when we were talking about self and I was explaining the vastness, that she asked me about the self, and it popped up and said I'm right here. I felt such an strong sense of sadness and awareness of how it couldn't be present. I don't know how to describe it, I think this is just the grief.

I watched some of Patrick Teahan's videos, which are very good, and there's one specifically about childhood trauma and limerance. Some of the things he's explaining really stuck out to me:

"when a child is not the centre of someone's world in a good enough way, they'll try to find a home in other people"

"(as if) waiting for a rescue"

"limerance is about being malnourished for connection - to be seen, to be safe"

"children need their person who is interested in them, seeks out time with them, and shares a special connection with them"

I don't know if I would fully label my experiences as limerance, but I do relate to a lot of the above, and think there is some fantasy/longing that a romantic interest will be that person who is interested in me, seeks out time with me etc. I also feel like there's some awareness (or self sabotage?) where I know a connection isn't going to be like the connection to my family, or am comparing it to that, and so nothing is ever "good enough" on some level. I don't feel I edge in the obsessive fantasy side of limerance though, and there is me who is aware that I have to do things on my own? Maybe this is the isolation, and wanting to maintain a connection to the ideas in the family, the life they wanted for me. I also do feel like there is a need for me to be seen, loved that is maybe strong (desperate seeming?) to another person. It's not really about getting to know them as a person, but playing out all this childhood stuff.

Limerence, Attachment, and Childhood Trauma
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvi9pDnIxb4

I'm also going through some of his other videos and there's quite a bit that stands out. I guess they're quite hopeful that you can actually come out the other side if you've gone through these things.