Out of the Storm

If you are not sure if you are HSP or not, here is a test by Elaine Aron:

http://www.hsperson.com/test/highly-sensitive-test/

Even though I checked "no" I think that test was inconclusive. I can be highly sensitive, just not in all circumstances.

technical note: I found it extremely annoying that they didn't bother to use a sum function to add the checkmarks! That would be so freakin easy to do! I could not count b/c I had to scroll. X(

Mine came out as "yes", but I'm not sure if I'm a HSP or not. I'm socially hypervigilant, so it might be simply that.

But I definitely think that one of my kids is highly sensitive. THAT would explain SO MUCH.  :blink:  So thanks for the link to that test.  :hug: 

Yes, I am. :) This shows up in my affinity for the arts as well as my life in general.

Rain, do you have a hypothesis about being highly sensitive and a link to cptsd? Just curious.

Yes, I'm one, too. My psychologist years back thought that this contributed to my mental health issues as well. As in, I was already sensitive by nature, so mistreatment carried an extra wallop.

I'm also "non-neurotypical" as they say. Not on the autism spectrum, but my brain is probably wired rather differently than most folks, according to the same shrink. I have synesthesia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
and there are other differences, for example a piece of music that most people would consider as happy and upbeat will trigger intensely sad feelings (unrelated to PTSD triggers or suchlike) I also have an abnormally high IQ (not bragging here - it hasn't done me any good!) which is significant in that it differs drastically from the rest of my FOO, and these things are usually inherited. The psychologist thought this might be due to having been born to an older mother.
I've never known for sure if all these things were interelated with being an HSP, but it seems like it could be.

I have two highly sensitive children, so I try to stay extra-attuned to their needs. It can be a fine line to walk. My other son is not an HSP, he's as resilient as anything, bless him. If anything, he's the most intuitive of all of us - I think it's because he's not distracted by so much internal data bombarding him. He can stay outwardly focused most of the time.

I was not quite at the 14 mark, and many of those I checked I would also say were indicative of hypervigilance more than true sensitivity.  If I hadn't been emotionally neglected, I am pretty sure I never would have learned half of those behaviors.

Its a chicken or egg scenario for me. But I said no.

sorry I corrected my response.. I counted it again and counted 20 out of 28 I first reported that


I did take the test... I scored 20 out of 28
The things that caught MY attention were...

I am easily overwhelmed by things like bright lights, strong smells,coarse fabrics,or sirens close by.

Like I really notice when the fabric in My blankets are rough. I remember When I got glasses for nearsightedness I could not wear the glasses long because I felt over stimulated.

I get rattled when I have a lot to do in a short amount of time.

This might be my cptsd  ???

I am annoyed when people try to get me to do too many things at once.

I make a point to avoid violent movies and TV shows.

keep on keepin on!  ;)

Yes... One thing that sticks with me is that one preacher that gave me premarriage counseling said that he was amazed at how sensitive I was about sensing other peoples feelings. NOW after coming out of the fog... I understand it well! It was survival for PS( initials of inner child) to sense how the Minefield around me was going to play out.  :fallingbricks:
Keep on keepin on!  ;)

A Swiss website says that most HSPs are born like this, but that it's not impossible that some people have become highly sensitive after trauma, constant stress, difficult life situations etc.

I've looked for more tests, but I'm finding all of them a bit difficult. How do I determine whether or not I have a "rich inner life" or not? I can't really see how anyone would check the "No" box on this. Other questions are about whether I find "chaos" upsetting, or whether I find doing "too many" tasks at once stressful. Well, if I call it "chaos" and "too many", it's kind of implied that it's something negative and upsetting. Would anyone really say "oh, I just adore chaos, and doing too many tasks at once is just lovely"?

What I found interesting is that HSPs often are highly sensitive in one of three areas:
-- sensory awareness (noise/sounds, smells, taste, light, colours): able to appreciate fine nuances in taste or smell etc, highly and easily irritated by sensations that others find harmless (examples taken from ppl I know: highly irritated by ticking clocks; cut labels out of all shirts etc because "it's too scratchy"; on a quest to find the ONE pair of socks that won't have this seam at the toes that's irritating the living daylights out of them; when a radio plays a song they dislike, they're unable to just sit it out, and instead lunge for the off switch with a rather wild-eyed expression on their face; may complain that something smells off where others don't notice anything
-- emotions: able to notice fine nuances in other people's behaviour and relationships etc, are empathetic, helpful, often good listeners with strong intuition; often feel overwhelmed by the wealth of information they're taking in; may "read between the lines" of other people's words and behaviour to the point where they neglect to also keep in mind what that person was actually saying (examples taken from various websites on HSPs: may find crowds overwhelming, e.g. large concerts, malls, parties; are often told that they're 'oversensitive', that they're 'overthinking things'; are often seen as shy; dislike meaningless chatter and smalltalk, instead preferring to "really talk" to people about meaningful topics; often take things too personally, e.g. jokes or criticism; hate conflict and prefer to create harmony, sometimes at the cost of their own needs or opinions; find it difficult to watch the news or violent movies
-- cognitive: a strong "feel" for logic, for 'true or false'; can think very complex, highly interconnected thoughts; find it easy to think abstract thoughts; are "overthinking things"; are able to see various aspects of the same thing, various sides of the same coin, and can't understand how people can jump to simplistic conclusions; may feel the need to create something like a basic philosophical opinion about the universe, life, and everything, with an urgency and priority that others may not be able to understand

So maybe it's more helpful to approach the topic keeping this in mind? It's probably easier to tell whether or not you're one of those three subtypes. They make it easier to think of specific points where people generally react one way and you tend to "overreact". The difference seems to be one of degree: so it's like everyone finds it a drag if there's several people talking (during a dinner party for example) and the conversation simply doesn't 'take off' and everyone's tense, but normal people will sigh and surreptitiously check their watch, while highly sensitive people will find this not just unpleasant, but actively and acutely stressful, and they'll afterwards be able to give a detailed account of what everybody was feeling.

Another thing: HSPs not only suffer more when circumstances are wonky, but they profit more when circumstances are just right. So the sensitive subtype will be in raptures over his favourite whiskey, or a good meal, or the beauty of nature, or a pieced of music. The emotional subtype will wilt in a difficult social setting, but put her in a good, supportive situation and she'll profit ever so much from that - while normal people don't suffer quite as much, but neither do they profit/enjoy the good things quite as much.

(My kid is highly sensitive, so I spent yesterday evening researching this a bit.)

Elaine Aron is the one who did the web page that I listed in the first post in this topic, and she is the one who developed the HSP term/description.

There are several books on HSP by Aron, and Zeff.    The Susan Cain book, Quiet has a chapter on it also.

I doubt there is ever a perfect test, set of questions for HSP.    Maybe we can just use Aron's for now, and just take a good guess at it.

Yes, Aron says HSP is genetic.

Quote from: zazu on November 26, 2014, 01:34:35 PM
I have two highly sensitive children, so I try to stay extra-attuned to their needs. It can be a fine line to walk. My other son is not an HSP, he's as resilient as anything, bless him. If anything, he's the most intuitive of all of us - I think it's because he's not distracted by so much internal data bombarding him. He can stay outwardly focused most of the time.

My one son is highly sensitive, the other not, and I find exactly the same thing.

Also, it boggles my mind at how horrible schools are at making for sensitivity.

Quote from: schrödinger's cat on November 26, 2014, 04:47:00 PM
(My kid is highly sensitive, so I spent yesterday evening researching this a bit.)

You have amazing researching and writing skills, Cat.   Thanks for the excellent summary, and the depth of information.

I smiled with your last line above in the quote ...I can almost just see you last night.   :yes:

Thanks again, and I hope you are feeling better and better each day!!

Thanks, Rain.  :hug:  It was funny, actually... I researched and researched, because I simply had to find out more, then hit the bit about cognitive HSPs, looked at my research, looked at the definition again...

Quote from: RainA couple of things, yes, Elaine Aron said the same thing in her book that HSPs do not fare well being abused --more so-- than most children.    You said it well, it is an extra wallop.

I stumbled upon this thing she calls "Vantage Sensitivity": that HSPs suffer more from abuse, BUT: they also profit more from being in a good, supportive environment. I found that encouraging.

Quote from: SandalsAlso, it boggles my mind at how horrible schools are at making for sensitivity.

Absolutely. The mere fact that kids are constantly being corralled into ginormous groups of at least two dozen people, that they then have to spend hours and hours with those people, without a fair chance to simply withdraw and be by themselves... I remember finding it stressful to be always in the same room with so much tension. All that boisterousness, the shrieking, the bullying, the teasing, the pranks, the jumping over tables, the throwing things about... It's like being locked in a cage full of overcaffeinated monkeys. In an ideal world, a classroom would have a mosh pit for the lively kids and a gallery where HSP kids can sit and work in peace.

And it's probably best to not even get started on "...and now we're going to do a fun group activity!" :fallingbricks:

I heard about how difficult it is to be an introvert in America. Our culture is a lot more introverted, and there's always the archetype of the "sensitive artist" you could tap into... how respected that archetype is depends on where you're from (rural areas value solidity), but at least it's there.

I'm an ENFP, so hi, fellow intuitive.

True, Cat.  You have an excellent point.

In the States, it seems like there is a lot of Rambo-like, sports metaphors, teamwork, achieve, sell, innovate, in corporate gatherings.

Now, Cat ...did you mean INFP or ENFP?   I imagine you are INFP ...and hi back, fellow intuitive.    :wave:

Ha yes, those corporate rambo pep talks don't translate AT ALL well into my culture. There's always this athmosphere of "preteens on a sugar high" about it. But conversely, Americans complain about how dour and funereal our corporate events are (which is true, they are), so it all evens out in the end.

Quote from: Rain on November 27, 2014, 03:23:40 PMNow, Cat ...did you mean INFP or ENFP?   I imagine you are INFP ...

In Myers-Briggs terms, I'm halfway between those types, but lean more towards ENFP. There's another typology called Socionics, and I'm definitely an ENFp in that. (Socionics ENFps are said to be the most introverted of all extraverted types, so it still fits with the "not really a very extraverted extravert" thing I have in the MBTI.)

Oh, now I understand, Cat.   You can see why I was confused though ...you say "fellow intuitive" and you had ENFP.   So, you are more extraverted than Rain.   Smiles here!

I so laughed with the "pre-teens on sugar high" ...almost.    They do all act quite mature.   It's just the messages at the event are so pumped up ...like a soda commercial.

Hug to my more extraverted friend!   :hug:

Another intuitive here - INTJ.   :wave:

In Canada, we're about halfway between EU & US (as is true for many things). The culture is not as brash (apologies for lack of a better word, my American friends, it's just what springs to mind). But from a corporate perspective, the lean for success is to those who are more extroverted. From a social perspective, it's not as high-pressured, but can be in some situations.

Interestingly, I had a former boss who was always pushing me to "find my voice" - which in her world meant to be louder, participate more, etc. I would tell her that I had my voice and also respect from those I worked with (which is true). I know she meant it from a good place, but it really irked me. Ironically, now that I *am* actually looking to find my voice, it has nothing to do with the metrics she put forward.

Being an INTJ means that I in my head a lot more than I am in my heart (F) and looking to understand the facts to make decisions (J) - I admire how the F & P comes out in you, Rain & Cat.

oh  :hug: to you, Sandals.

All myers briggs types are needed in the world.   I do with the HSP and IN-- types were more embraced in the States and in Canada.   I've been to Canadian events, so I know what you mean.

You would enjoy the Quiet book too, Sandals.   The author has a story of herself in a meeting that soooo counters what your boss says.

A voice is good, in any way YOU choose to express it.   :yes:

Thanks, Rain. :hug:

I actually read Quiet when it first came out a while ago. I think I've been much more in touch with my introverted side than my vulnerable side because it was easier to quantify and rationalize...and coincidentally also provided a good defense to not be vulnerable.

Share more on this, Sandals, if you want.  And, you had also brought up vulnerability in the other thread.   I haven't thought of introversion being a defense not to be vulnerable.

I'm behind on current books, I just read it this Spring.  :yes:

I'm impressed that you are doing so much reading, Rain. I've been struggling to comprehensively read a single book for a while (I skim lots and also read internet articles, etc.). Keep it up, my friend.  :yes:

Here is my hypothesis: I don't think introversion itself is a defence to vulnerability. It's part of who we are and it's good to understand and accept it to help with being aware. However, the way that I was defining and using it served as a defence to not to be vulnerable.

Here are a few examples. (Bear in mind that I find there's still a lot of debate about what actually is an introvert characteristic; I think as with any definition, there is a spectrum and differences occur at the ends of it.)

-Behaviour example: Introverts don't like to talk loudly or participate a lot. They are deep thinkers and will speak up when they have something important to say.
-My defence to vulnerability: I don't need to speak up because I am an introvert (vs. because I am afraid of what may happen, because it doesn't feel safe). I don't need to say something or ask this question because it is a minor detail since I'm an introvert and it's not a deep thought (vs. because I'm scared I might be wrong).
-[note: this would sometimes even happen sub-consciously when talking to my T. I would go into a session and then just not feel like saying anything & wouldn't talk. In this case, it wasn't a conscious defence, but it was still a defence to vulnerability.]

-Behaviour example: Introverts don't like to socialize a lot.
-My defence to vulnerability: I am going to stay at home and not socialize because I am an introvert (vs. because I am uncertain and afraid of what might happen at this occasion, even though I'm interested and it could be an amazing opportunity, even though there's nothing wrong with the environment)
-[note: again, some of this defence was conscious, but a lot was unconscious]

It's funny how shame can mask these things (things are tying together for me) and mount defences using very rational thinking. My T told me about the Johari Window (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johari_window) and how a lot of this process (for me) is moving things from the unconscious to the conscious mind. I feel that as I'm doing this, I can then start to filter on what is a defence to being vulnerable (likely driven by shame) and what is truly respecting my more introverted nature.

Does that make sense?

Thanks, Sandals!   And, thanks for your encouragement, and feedback on my "reading path" or bibliotherapy as Pete Walker calls it.

I use the word "justification" for what you call defence.

A person justifies their behavior with rational or irrational beliefs.

Your examples are that you justify what you have done because you are an introvert.   The justifications vary to the situation, but they are tied to the characteristics of introversion.

I understand what you are saying, Sandals!   Thanks for detailing it, and I love how you brought in shame ...it's underneath so much.

We are all unraveling so much here at the forum!

I think that the GD that I sit for the most, is hsp. Thanksgiving seemed to do her in. She was almost sickly the day after. Then she slept for about 3 hours in the afternoon. On Thanksgiving I ask her IF She wanted to call her Daddy...She didn't, finally when She woke up from her nap the day after, I ask her about if She wanted to talk to her Daddy. She finally agreed. Then I overheard Her tell him She did not call him on Thanksgiving day because She was nervous.

During our play date She told me that she did not like school... She would like to be home all the time! I think She feels comfortable at home. She is friendly at school and has lots of friends. So it is not a peer thing that makes her want to stay home. I find I have to be careful at the level of voice I use on her If I raise my voice then she cries,no matter what I say.  Mostly She is EASY to care for. She is comfortable playing by herself as long as She is in the same room with me. She is not one of those kids that want to sit at the TV all day...she goes from doing different things, playing with dolls, then legos, then writing, etc. She has a wonderful vocabulary using very big words, I sometimes wonder where she learns them! I did learn that IF I have a play date with her and let My inner child GO then She opens up with me more!

This information will help me care for her better. I think that at times I was thinking that She was using crying as a way to do what she wanted... Now I am going to think that she might be overloaded rather than trying to get her way! I will try soothing her more and teaching her to sooth herself. I have been working on this some but now realizing that It is more important than I thought! 
Keep on Keeping on!  ;)

Quote from: Rain on November 27, 2014, 12:09:41 AM
Thank you soooooooooo much for this post.   A couple of things, yes, Elaine Aron said the same thing in her book that HSPs do not fare well being abused --more so-- than most children.    You said it well, it is an extra wallop.

You also bring up something that I have wondered about on OOTS members as a whole, which is the high IQ factor.   For the most part, this is an very smart group of people.   And, I am also aware, this is a group that has survived, and also went so far as to find a support group.   However, it still leaves me wondering what "contribution" (I cringe using that word) that the abuse had to the high IQ.    Yes, I had noticed you were quite intelligent, zazu ...so, it is not a "loss" as you say.   :hug:

I have met someone with synesthesia before in that saw music as color.   For you, Zazu, your experience of music is a qualitative difference ...sad ...happy ...soooo, Christmas carols are tear-jerkers for you?  I'm sighing here.   And, does that mean when you go to funerals, and hear the organ music, it is happy, joy-evoking for you??   This is a major bummer.   So, high school dances your peers are laughing having good time to the music, and it is intensely sad music for you.   Correct?   And, then you are supposed to join in ....not fun.

As to HSP, I don't know ...that is part of why I was asking.   It would take a researcher, etc. though to really answer your question.   I just had an impression of a high % of HSP here.   And, yes, the CPTSD symptoms and HSP do have similarities in some aspects.   I'm sure you know, but HSP is a biologically different nervous system according to Aron.

I'm delighted you are taking such good care of your HSP children!!!   Wow.   And, your other son being intuitive.   Hey, Zazu ...sounds like you are doing a great job of being a mother!   Way to Go!!!

Hi Rain,

Sorry it's taken so long to respond (I've been away for Thanksgiving holiday)....
I didn't mean to mislead in my previous post. I don't have synesthesia related to music - that's just an example of how my "wiring" is a bit wonky. :P I kind of wish I did - it would be cool to see shapes and colors with sounds! No, I have the gustatory-lexical type (tasting words), some word-color and one type that's rather hard to fit in one category -  the way I experience memory is a bit like a filing cabinet, but instead of being labeled alphabetically or numerically, like a real life filing system, the memories are categorized by color, taste and feeling. If  I need to retrieve a memory, I'll remember the color, taste and especially the feeling that went with a certain date and be able to pull it out and re-live the memory.

It happens with even small things, like, say, remembering what's on a particular page of a book. This amazes my husband, who can never remember where a particular phrase is located. He has to mark and highlight things. I just associate each passage in a book with a particular feeling/color/taste which is associated with a page number, and bang, there it is. It seems so simple, but he really can't do it.

That probably sounds bizarre, but I only realized it was strange when other people said they did not experience things in the same way and were confused when I tried to explain. :blink: The psychologist, on the other hand, jumped up and down with excitement when I happened to mention this in passing (I really didn't think it was important) because he had been stymied as to why I was not improving after two years of treatment. He suspected that the synesthesia resulted from abnormal connections between my temporal lobe and limbic system. If this was the case, then some of my mental health issues weren't so much emotional as strictly neurological.

It really helped, knowing that.

And I do hope I'm dealing with my HSP kids appropriately. I make sure they get enough space and quiet when they need it. The older one feels left out of ordinary teenage life by being an introvert, as if he's doing it "wrong". You know, the stereotype of teens and their wild parties, which sounds like a total nightmare to him. I tell him that it's perfectly okay if books, art and quiet conversation is his version of fun. If it's fun for you, it's fun for you, no matter what the stereotypes say.

We have a book called "the introvert advantage" which is quite good.

Sounds good. I think that's actually a very big thing we can do for our kids - to validate them especially when they're doing or feeling or liking things that don't correspond to the norm. Feeling different is still uncomfortable, but when your own family tells you that you're wrong for being different, that's so much worse. So even just making room for someone's higher degree of sensitivity, that feels so validating already, especially if it's done simply as a matter of course and not as a great big sacrifice for the oversensitive fragile flower.

Quote from: BadmemoriesI find I have to be careful at the level of voice I use on her If I raise my voice then she cries,no matter what I say.

My kid has that too. We sometimes call her our coal mine canary - if there's the eensiest sign that something's the matter, she'll pick up on it and droop off her perch. It means I can't just tell her that she's done something wrong. If I'm upset, she'll pick up on it and think I'm mad at her when I'm simply just annoyed at the situation, not at her. So I end up using humour to defuse the tension. That usually puts her at her ease. Knowing what HS is and how it "works" has made things ever so much easier. Secretly, I've been worrying that I'm simply spoiling her by walking on egg-shells so much. Now that I know where we are, I know a bit better how to proceed.

I've loved your posts, your understanding on HSP that you are learning and sharing, Cat.

The description of your daughter especially!  I've read it several times.    No wonder why you researched so much.    I love how loving you are of your kids, Cat.   So wonderful to read!

And, I still think of, and sooooo laugh of your splendid description of the common school insensitivity to HSP kids ...the "and now we're going to do a fun group activity!"  :fallingbricks:"   

:hug:

Interestingly my cptsd first reared it's ugly head just over a year ago, shortly after concluding that my daughter was HSP, and me too.  It was sort of a chain reaction.  1. discovery of hsp, 2. recognition of all of my gut reactions to my husbands loud, overbearing, narcissism, 3. attempts to communicate my needs for quiet, calm communication and discussion, along with attempts to explain the importance of his trying to understand my makeup and needs, 4. failed attempts to penetrate his thick skull and make positive changes together (for the millionth time), 5. shut-down/breakdown/full-blown cptsd.

That was just over a year ago.  I'm still with him because I feel like I I have to get to some point of recovery before I can make this life changing decision for my family.  I worry about my kids.

I'm new to this group and am at a stage where I feel a strong need to speak with others in a similar situation.  My friends are great, but they just don't understand.

Hi hawk, pleased to meet you!  :wave:  I'm HSP too, but I only spent a few weeks in close proximity to a narcissist one summer years and years ago, so I can't say much. I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you. I'm glad you're here, and I hope you'll find something helpful here.

Hi hawk,

welcome. I have a long history of attracting & being attracted to NPD, so I can sorta relate. I also understand about friends... the more I learn about ptsd and trauma, the more I realize the fact that I cannot expect most people to understand, and it's futile to try to explain it to them.

Finding this group was one lucky break for me! Finally a place to be understood! I hope this will be your experience here, too.

Thanks so much for the warm welcomes!  I already feel better ;)
Will attempt to locate a place to tell you a bit more about myself...still trying to figure out this site.