Thank you Chart and thank you for reading. It is helpful to know that there are other people out there who get it and are going through similar things, and I can just say what's going on and don't have to monitor it as I realize how much I had to do that growing up. I guess it's starting to be that door with the window in it, so people can see in.
Talking with Phoebes on the other thread makes me aware of how much "stuff" there is under there that I haven't brought up about how the physical side of my m's narc rage affected me. Maybe this is where the "get the * away from me" feeling comes from. I also can't help thinking that this stuff comes from before my m as well and it's another pattern, or family dynamic that I'm playing out.
TW
In the reports it says that my gm left her first husband because "he became increasingly emotionally unstable and during hysterical rages would beat his wife and his infant daughter. I could take a lot but nobody will touch my daughter," (gm) said and *claimed* this was the reason she left her first husband."
End TW
The use of the word claimed is so interesting because she had been talking about how he was a poor provider (ie no money) and how weak and skinny he was (putting him down), and how she didn't love him, but he was a fabulous dancer. It's like being the protector is the cover for these things. It also talks about how she would protect her younger brother growing up (I think he was strict and domineering as well, but it wasn't talked about a lot; I wonder if the fantasy bond provider/prince charming started here? Or even before?), and that she feared my gf would become abusive like his mother when he saw the way she treated my ggf. What's interesting is that the report points out the questionable logic of this. She also started bringing up the same things about my sgf. We weren't allowed to be angry growing up and it was absorbed, redirected, squashed and gm would go into victim mode, "why are you mad at me?" I guess that would deviate from her being the saviour/protector and force some self-reflection.
I suspect my m wasn't allowed to be angry and was born into this idea of what life was supposed to be like. I'm not excusing her behaviour (or trying to save her like in the past and it's funny how that shows up in me), but I can see where it came from (maybe I am excusing it here? Or letting it supercede my feelings about what I went through, and maybe that's the family narrative? That you can't speak out, you depend on these people even if they're treating you badly).
I've been wondering about the need to "protect" myself around people and where this comes from. I've been trying to track my internal state around people more, and generally I feel like if there's a bit of distance, it's ok. Like let's just be social/cordial but at a distance. I really feel this internal push to not be close to people, to not discuss what's going on internally (as a way to protect family and family secrets?), and just get through it. Is it because I'm carrying this idea that people are dangerous and there's a need to protect myself, which is partly, and I guess confusingly, is grounded in reality because of my m and family's behaviour, but also an idea passed down and not grounded in reality (as I can see from the questionable logic in the reports about people being abusive to my gm)? I guess the difference is that I don't want to absorb it, and wanted other people to step up and take responsibility for their behaviour. I guess one way to do that is to not allow things to be "absorbed," or realizing that there was nothing wrong in the first place. It's difficult for me to hang onto things like anger if there's mistreatment (ie passive-aggressiveness) for example because internally I think I've been trained to "absorb" things like that and my nervous system automatically shuts down from the narc rage. I think even before the narc rage as well because it was a threat to my survival to not have that attachment figure.
The timeline for these reports are from six years before I was born (when my m would have been 18) until roughly when I was six (and m would have been 29). So, the first years of my life are my m neglecting me to go out partying, and spending a lot of time with my gm who had two suicide attempts (no one ever mentioned this), was also in conflict with my gf, having a lot of problems at work and with money and was taking more poetic license with the reality of her relationships, as well as a gf who was demanding and criticial. I think it made sense to believe another "reality" for me as well, or was hard not to.
In Growing Up as a Scapegoat to a Narcissistic Parent, Jay Reid says in a chapter aptly named "The Pressure to Believe What A Narcissistic Parent Says" that:
"In order to fit into and share in the narcissistic parent's reality, it is essential for the child to accept and identify with the parent's projections of their own unwanted feelings. Why? Because if the child does not do this their parent will not recognize them as part of their reality.
It feels like being nobody to no one and is inherently traumatic. That is, such experience overwhelms the child's abilities to cope at the time. The child cannot go to a different adult who cares for them and restore their sense of being known by an important other person. Instead the child must find a way sacrifice their own perspective to stay known by the parent they have."
"To feel unknown by and unknowable to a primary caregiver can mean that one does not really exist, and that the parent does not really exist. Such encounters yield a sense of unendurable emptiness, void, terror, despair, and rage. As crushing and ill-fitting as it may feel to identify with the parent's projections, the alternative is likely worse."
NARM T asked why I feel the need to go through these reports and I think it's because my memories, feelings etc were absorbed into someone else's narrative about a life that they wanted to exist. I feel like all my feelings, reactions etc were absorbed in that because I needed to survive and it's really hard to try and pick them out. I can also understand why it was, or felt impossible to do it connected to them because I was constantly asked to believe these things. There was no space to find myself and I feel like it's so automatic to absorb these things that it's hard to create that space. Even now it's hard to not dip into the role of doing things for other people.
edit: I've had to take care of a few things this morning and I expected nothing but problems. Funnily enough, everything went fine. I also opened an email about a recent invoice, expecting problems (or as my body feels like it - a fight), but everything was fine. It's just interesting to track and start to be aware of this internal experience that the world is not ending (well, different story) and likely how much of those feelings are determined by early experiences (and taking care of the crisises in my gm's life). I was also thinking yesterday about the post I made when I first wore shorts to the gym and what a big thing that felt like. I guess to just step out and be seen, or feel like I'm not x enough to do it. I feel like I've made a lot of progress since then, or have been working on that and feel better about it.
Talking with Phoebes on the other thread makes me aware of how much "stuff" there is under there that I haven't brought up about how the physical side of my m's narc rage affected me. Maybe this is where the "get the * away from me" feeling comes from. I also can't help thinking that this stuff comes from before my m as well and it's another pattern, or family dynamic that I'm playing out.
TW
In the reports it says that my gm left her first husband because "he became increasingly emotionally unstable and during hysterical rages would beat his wife and his infant daughter. I could take a lot but nobody will touch my daughter," (gm) said and *claimed* this was the reason she left her first husband."
End TW
The use of the word claimed is so interesting because she had been talking about how he was a poor provider (ie no money) and how weak and skinny he was (putting him down), and how she didn't love him, but he was a fabulous dancer. It's like being the protector is the cover for these things. It also talks about how she would protect her younger brother growing up (I think he was strict and domineering as well, but it wasn't talked about a lot; I wonder if the fantasy bond provider/prince charming started here? Or even before?), and that she feared my gf would become abusive like his mother when he saw the way she treated my ggf. What's interesting is that the report points out the questionable logic of this. She also started bringing up the same things about my sgf. We weren't allowed to be angry growing up and it was absorbed, redirected, squashed and gm would go into victim mode, "why are you mad at me?" I guess that would deviate from her being the saviour/protector and force some self-reflection.
I suspect my m wasn't allowed to be angry and was born into this idea of what life was supposed to be like. I'm not excusing her behaviour (or trying to save her like in the past and it's funny how that shows up in me), but I can see where it came from (maybe I am excusing it here? Or letting it supercede my feelings about what I went through, and maybe that's the family narrative? That you can't speak out, you depend on these people even if they're treating you badly).
I've been wondering about the need to "protect" myself around people and where this comes from. I've been trying to track my internal state around people more, and generally I feel like if there's a bit of distance, it's ok. Like let's just be social/cordial but at a distance. I really feel this internal push to not be close to people, to not discuss what's going on internally (as a way to protect family and family secrets?), and just get through it. Is it because I'm carrying this idea that people are dangerous and there's a need to protect myself, which is partly, and I guess confusingly, is grounded in reality because of my m and family's behaviour, but also an idea passed down and not grounded in reality (as I can see from the questionable logic in the reports about people being abusive to my gm)? I guess the difference is that I don't want to absorb it, and wanted other people to step up and take responsibility for their behaviour. I guess one way to do that is to not allow things to be "absorbed," or realizing that there was nothing wrong in the first place. It's difficult for me to hang onto things like anger if there's mistreatment (ie passive-aggressiveness) for example because internally I think I've been trained to "absorb" things like that and my nervous system automatically shuts down from the narc rage. I think even before the narc rage as well because it was a threat to my survival to not have that attachment figure.
The timeline for these reports are from six years before I was born (when my m would have been 18) until roughly when I was six (and m would have been 29). So, the first years of my life are my m neglecting me to go out partying, and spending a lot of time with my gm who had two suicide attempts (no one ever mentioned this), was also in conflict with my gf, having a lot of problems at work and with money and was taking more poetic license with the reality of her relationships, as well as a gf who was demanding and criticial. I think it made sense to believe another "reality" for me as well, or was hard not to.
In Growing Up as a Scapegoat to a Narcissistic Parent, Jay Reid says in a chapter aptly named "The Pressure to Believe What A Narcissistic Parent Says" that:
"In order to fit into and share in the narcissistic parent's reality, it is essential for the child to accept and identify with the parent's projections of their own unwanted feelings. Why? Because if the child does not do this their parent will not recognize them as part of their reality.
It feels like being nobody to no one and is inherently traumatic. That is, such experience overwhelms the child's abilities to cope at the time. The child cannot go to a different adult who cares for them and restore their sense of being known by an important other person. Instead the child must find a way sacrifice their own perspective to stay known by the parent they have."
"To feel unknown by and unknowable to a primary caregiver can mean that one does not really exist, and that the parent does not really exist. Such encounters yield a sense of unendurable emptiness, void, terror, despair, and rage. As crushing and ill-fitting as it may feel to identify with the parent's projections, the alternative is likely worse."
NARM T asked why I feel the need to go through these reports and I think it's because my memories, feelings etc were absorbed into someone else's narrative about a life that they wanted to exist. I feel like all my feelings, reactions etc were absorbed in that because I needed to survive and it's really hard to try and pick them out. I can also understand why it was, or felt impossible to do it connected to them because I was constantly asked to believe these things. There was no space to find myself and I feel like it's so automatic to absorb these things that it's hard to create that space. Even now it's hard to not dip into the role of doing things for other people.
edit: I've had to take care of a few things this morning and I expected nothing but problems. Funnily enough, everything went fine. I also opened an email about a recent invoice, expecting problems (or as my body feels like it - a fight), but everything was fine. It's just interesting to track and start to be aware of this internal experience that the world is not ending (well, different story) and likely how much of those feelings are determined by early experiences (and taking care of the crisises in my gm's life). I was also thinking yesterday about the post I made when I first wore shorts to the gym and what a big thing that felt like. I guess to just step out and be seen, or feel like I'm not x enough to do it. I feel like I've made a lot of progress since then, or have been working on that and feel better about it.