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The person I told about the text I sent were having a chat, and I said I wonder if there's something in my shadow self that's bringing out this felt antagonism in people/like what am I doing on my part? They said maybe I need to stop taking on responsibility or trying to appease when things go wrong and it just makes me not want to tell people things. T is similar, and feels like I'm blaming myself, but the rejection wound comes FROM me. I'm playing these scenarios out with other people, and there is something that I'm doing to a degree that gets me involved in these situations (though am trying to understand the antagonism and conflict part).

Responsibility is/was a tricky thing growing up. I don't think a lot of people took it (m, gf) or over identified? (gm where everything was her fault and she would sit in depression yet not take care ofof, or responsibility for herself, which was somehow left up to us covertly?). I definitely felt like I had to take it on, get these grades etc, do more. Yet on some level, felt too, that this stuff wasn't mine.

With that woman at the gym, I don't have a conscious feeling that I did something wrong. In fact, it's the opposite. I've been minding my own business. Yet, maybe subconsciously, I feel that there's something in my that pulls these people to me like repeating my m's behaviour and the dynamic we had. This is what I was trying to explain to this person. I haven't been  "nice" to her (and him), I've been a civil, human being, which is what I'm supposed to be (and try to be). What I wonder/think is if people like this can sense or are aware of the dynamic/power imbalance etc (or that I'm seemingly full of caca), and want to challenge me, and then the "fight" comes out? Is it so pervasive in my being that I did something wrong (and was the scapegoat), that it doesn't matter what I feel I'm putting out because that's still my subconscious belief? I think I do still question the things I do on some level, and at work last week I felt like I was starting to "absorb" responsibility when things felt like they were going sideways. I consciously thought, I'm not going to be a scapegoat. That being said, it is adult to take responsibility for your part in things, and I don't want to be like my family who didn't.

I'm guessing this is related to the fantasy bond and the idea of who I had to be in order to survive. On the one hand, there is an adult who knows about my family and what was going on, and is doing the work. On the other hand, I'm realizing that there are probably other parts living in the past with things they had to do. Telling someone to "stop being nice" is like expecting me to understand another language. I don't think it computes with certain parts of my brain, and I'm not going to be hard on myself for not understanding that or feel shame because it just speaks to the messed up things I had to go through.

[right]

I went through a lot of grief over this a couple of years ago and came out the other end pretty detached. But it still gets me sometimes, very deeply. He was there and didn't protect. He was fun and talented but didn't spend time with me, teach me anything or include me. I love music and art, too. Why didn't my musician artist dad teach me or validate me? Not a single picture on the fridge my whole childhood. His pristine paintings covered the walls.

I'm trying to have compassion for the last parent I speak to, but when I remember certain things, and when he does this type of thing (by far not the first of this nature), it wrecks me, honestly.

Hey Phoebes,

I really get what's going on for you rn. I couldn't understand how my gm (and gf) who told me they loved me could just let my m treat me the way she did and not stick up for me. Not to mention going behind my back and trying to get my m and I back together and inviting her to my university graduation when I specifically didn't. So, they told me they loved me and when I called them out on behaviour like this, it would be but why are you mad at me? Well, why can't you listen to me and yes, I do have that right to be heard. It's not all about you. For me, this was crazy-making, really. It defied reason. Like you, when I would tell other people about her behaviour, they would say well she just really loves you, and all that "it's family" garbage. What it sounds like with your dad to me, is that he had a public persona that everyone liked and served him well, which was good for him. It didn't matter what happened to you and it should have 

What I'm realizing is that there is a part of me, very young, that formed an idealized image of them and this is what helped me survive. Not just an idealized image, but if I do x, then I will receive this love. Now, as an adult, I'm looking for this in other people, but am only just starting to realize that I'm not going to get it. This is a fantasy "love" that I needed to believe about my family and the person I thought I had to be (and what my life should look like) in order to survive. I think it comes from such a young age as well and that's what makes it so hard. I was in a fantasy bond since birth with people I thought loved me, but they were incapable of loving me. All this time I was just trying to do the "thing" whatever it was, so that I could finally be like other people and things would "work out" and I too would be thriving etc. While inside, I still feel it's hard for me to find things that I do well for example. To me, it just shows how strong their voices, and that bond, still is that I can't see the good things I'm doing, or what I've accomplished.

I did pick through a bit of the Jay Reid book and it's tricky because I think it applies to, or illustrates, very typical narcissistic behaviour ie very blatant putting down etc. For me, this applies to my m, but not my gm or gf. However, covert narcissism (gm) and moral narcissism (gf - but can't remember Dr. Ramani's exact term) is trickier to spot. So, I can see why it took so long to work this out, and how under the radar it is. What he did say that sort of clicked was the "narcissist is always above you." I'm only beginning to understand how this applies to my gm and gf and me. Both my gm and gf had lived through the war and came to Canada as refugees. There was always a sense that they had lived through so much, what right did I have to assert myself or question them? I was here because of them, enjoying the life I had. How could I rebel and not do what they say ie simply be my own person? I felt guilty on some level every time I would try, and more so too because my gm seemed so selfless and "giving me everything." But every child has a right to exist and I didn't ask to be born and don't owe them anything (a friend of mine said this to me and it blew my mind, like it was dangerous. It shows me again, how deeply ingrained this stuff is). There's also a lot of cultural beliefs around "family" and how children should "behave" for me as well and as a kid I needed to do all this because it was "safe" and I would surive.

I don't want to make this about me, just pointing out my circumstances and why it was/is so hard to pick out. You're not alone, and it's not you, it's them. Really.

Sending you support and a hug if that's ok 
dolly

Thanks Blueberry, I will look into giving that a try. Right now I've covered them over with some old trellis and hope it gets the hint!

Thank you NK  Don't worry about not responding. You need to take care of yourself at the mo.  I am beginning to read about the rejection "wound." I don't think it's an official psychological term per se, but feels very valid in that I'm expecting rejection, so I want to know where I stand etc. Unfortunately, I think this is interpreted in dating as wanting everything too fast, too clingy, too much etc., and that push becomes that I'm chasing or will be jealous, needs x kind of relationship etc. Obviously, there's all the advice that says, "the right person will understand, whatever," but it hasn't really been my experience. Maybe because I don't even understand it myself. I guess the irony is that adult me doesn't expect those things or that I want to get married now, or that I know it takes time getting to know someone and to wait and see how things progress, and that's something I want too. I guess there's a part that needs a kind of certainty but adult me knows that I can't expect it from other people and so I get into this push pull dynamic? Someone mentioned object constancy on another forum and I have been trying to read more about that as well. As an infant you need someone there for you, and I think in a rejection wound, they weren't, or it becomes difficult when there is no object constancy ie certainty. So, from an infant we have experienced a lack of object constancy and that thing/person will not return (or that maybe we are not safe without someone there/ and vice versa better on our own as we know we are protected/watching out for ourselves).

So, I had a big long post written and then *poof,* computer froze, and now it's all gone. I really wish it hadn't have done that as I felt like I was in the zone! I want to try and piece together a bit of what it said. I think I'm starting to look more at how conflict is showing up in my life as well as how being the family scapegoat is manifesting as well. Someone mentioned a book called Scapegoating in Families: Intergenerational Patterns of Physical and Emotional Abuse and I'm interested to see how this plays out in my family.

I was thinking last night about the experiences I wrote about and it felt like it was being made aware in a different part of my brain, like these are not foreign experiences, and yes, they actually happened to me. I feel like it was more clear this morning and now they've kind of gone back into that, it wasn't me part of my brain, but I think it's good to try and become more aware, and have that feeling stay of how much conflict was around in my early life, and I guess how I structured my inner experience to deal with that. How and why does this seem to keep appearing in my life where there are conflicts with other people? And I'm in the position of feeling overpowered and that I need to protect myself? I guess that was a fundamental aspect of growing up.

I've written before about passive aggressiveness from other people and how it feels like other people want to "push me around." Internally, I feel like I need to match that I guess, and need to fight like with like or there will be a winner and a loser. However, as I was typing it out before, the concept kind of reminded me of a child's magical thinking, and I guess it probably is. I feel like this is how some parts feel like they need to defend themselves.

Last week in the gym a woman was really short with me because I was having a conversation and she wanted to use the weights. I was chatting with someone about physio and shoulder rehab and the tone didn't really merit the situation of her asking if I was done. I've seen this woman around and from the beginning I got competition and she's have it in for me vibes. So, I've tried to avoid her, but also not let her push me around. Do I want to build bridges with people like that? No. Do I want to try to understand people like that? Also no. Is it a secure response? Probably not. I guess this is one response. In the past, I would have tried to be "nice," but I don't really feel like that solves the problem either (probably because it's people pleasing?) So, on the one hand I do feel like my response could be perpetuating the behaviour, but I also feel the need to defend and protect myself because ignoring them doesn't seem to stop the passive-aggressiveness. I don't know, maybe I'm not ignoring them hard enough as a part of me is still worried about my "safety." I find myself in situations like this a lot with people who are passive-aggressive and act lovely to other people, but treat me a different way. Usually with other women and I guess there is something in there about how I grew up. It fills me with rage though when people behave like this at what feels like my expense and I wonder how similar it is to the rage part of my m that would come out.

Anyways, the next time I saw the man I was chatting with the first thing he said was, what was that? meaning her reaction. I felt like it backed up my experience that it wasn't in my head or exaggerated. What's interesting is that I tried to make a joke about it and said I guess some people don't like that I'm good at what I do, and in doing that, I made it my fault in a way. ie there's something about me that draws that attention from other people, but I guess that's what a scapegoat does. They are responsible for the bad behaviour of the people around them, or, as in my family, when things go wrong. (I also guess I feel like people like that are let off the hook a lot about how they treat me. Maybe I am looking for someone to stand up for me and protect me, which didn't happen growing up and why stuff like this keeps "finding" me, but perhaps this is "child consciousness"). I guess I had to make the conflict about me/my fault in order to survive it growing up, and looked for a fantasy bond/rescue to be loved etc to deal with it too.

Ok I think that somewhat of a summary of what I wrote before.

Hi Phoebes,

I'm sorry you had to get that text, that's crap. I think you're right that's it's so on the nose and he's not choosing to see what's in front of his face even after you told him. I hope you're able to have some distance and see the situation for what it is though I empathsize with how hard it is and how much it just sucks to go through it. But it's a testament I think to all the work you're doing that you can see the dynamic for what it is and that he's not empathisizing with you at all. I hope you can be there for you in a way that they weren't.

I was reading another post recently about what are thee benefits of growing up as a scapegoat in the family, and someone commented how they were able to leave and how much better they're doing now (not that you're a scapegoat). I just felt like for me, it can be so hard to see that yes, I actually am doing better now than I was when I was with my family, and as much as child consciousness me yearns for that connection and protection, adult consciousness me can see that they would've never given it to me no matter what I said. But those are my experiences.

Sending you support and, from me, I'm not a fan of mother's day
dolly

Thank you Chart    I think it's such a deep thing that we're not aware of how that kind of attachment trauma comes into our lives. I think this is why I found the NARM book so interesting in that it goes into how that kind of trauma shows up in our lives through connection and disconnection. I'm trying to pay attention more to my triggers and think there is one that happens under the radar through perceived (whether real or not) rejection. What I found especially pertinent in the book that I've mentioned before, is that it doesn't matter if our conscious mind is aware of something or not ie that person not coming to the gym after I feel like we had a connection isn't about me, but my body takes it as a rejection and I go into shut down (fearful avoidant style), and my emotions along with it. I'm really trying to understand connection and disconnection more and I guess be more present when this stuff does come up.

I'm feeling really spun out over this situation with this person. It's a long story but I feel like I ended up sort of "forcing" the issue because I couldn't handle the feelings that were coming up when they were around, but didn't say anything. So, I asked them out for coffee. They said they had a lot going on but could meet the following week. I ended up seeing them twice in the gym and was triggered that they weren't being up front. I asked a couple different people what they thought. One said he could be busy, I don't know what's going on in his life and the other to ignore him because it seems like he's messing around. The thing, or tricky part for me, is that those emotions become overwhelming and I don't have a lot of space to just let things be and see what happens the following week. So, I sent a text which mayy have seemed kind of crazy to someone that doesn't know me, saying that I would like to get to know him and I just appreciate people who are up front (and not giving a slow fade in more or less words). Having to give that person the benefit of the doubt is so difficult for me. He said no and I sort of became defensive about called out his behaviour.  No reply. I did acknowledge, and was the start of a lot of awareness about the situation and how I was projecting a lot of things from the beginning. I sort of accepted it and was fine with the no, was busy with work and the next time it felt like there were vibes when I saw him. Cue the feeling of rejection that showed up, or preceived rejection. Again, just not really being able to sit with the situation. I was busy with work and didn't see them much and then tried to make eye contact just to see if we're cool. The lack of communication spins me out.

So, yesterday I was there and they came in (sort of stealthily where they would have had to go behind me when it's just much easier to go in front) and sat like 10 feet away on their phone, not working out in a sort of open space in the gym. I'd seen them there before stretching when they would go play racquet sports in other parts of the gym, but never when they were in the gym gym. It sort of spun me out, but I ignored them and left to go stretch. When I came back in we made eye contact and they sort of smiled or seemed open, but I felt shut down and went to go do my thing. This very much feels like the dynamic all along. They did like two exercises on the machines and left, sort of unusual. I felt off and left early. I felt like this behaviour is crazy making for me, and again, I have a really hard time sitting with these emotions. Why? It feels like there is some sort of antagonism that I have to fix, or that I don't want to continue, or will come back on me. I fully get if this person doesn't want to be with me romantically and I guess the lack of communication on their part is evidence of that, and someone told me to just let them do their thing. However, it just also feels like a grey area because I do feel like I was a bit intense, and it's like I can't fend off these feelings of overwhelm about it. I texted them friends? to try and smooth things over. Of course, I haven't heard anything back. I was hoping, but don't really expect to I guess. There is a part of me that says, screw him, but there's also another part that's mired down in something.

Someone was asking me why I feel like I need to reach out and smooth things over, and I explained because there have been a couple guys where it seemed like the interest was there, they didn't do anything, so I moved on. However, it was like they then became antagonistic for me doing that and passive-aggressive. I guess to me it feels like messed up power dynamics? One of them I don't really understand because they have a partner and baby now, but saw them last week and there was a lot of passive-aggressiveness. Perhaps there's something in my behaviour that I'm not seeing that is precipitating this? However, what I realized last night is that the whole situation is sort of reminiscent with what happened with my mother. I feel like maybe I rejected them, or just moved on because there wasn't anything coming from their side (ie pursuit which maybe is ill treatment in a way, or not being valued and seen like I matter). It seems, or I'm interpreting, that there's then these feelings of hostility because I guess I hurt them, or rejected them on some level (though tbh I don't see it when they never made a move, maybe because I shut it down in a way by thinking that they will never want me/be interested in me. I think I have a rejection wound), and now I am being punished for going my own way, or to have my own life. This sounds like a repeat of my mom punishing me and telling me I abandoned her after I went to go live with my dad because of the way I was being treated.

The whole things just feels really confusing and emotional and as much as I would like to smooth things over, be diplomatic, and have it end well, I have the feeling that that's not what's going to happen. It feels like trying to stop a runaway train (maybe slight hyperbole) but it's bringing up all those chaotic feelings again. I guess the best thing I can do is to try to be diplomatic.

What's coming up for me is how much conflict is really in my life that I seem to suppress.

Poss TW

Threatening to call the police if my m hit me that Christmas; dealing with a sf who is trying, well succeeding, in cheating me out of my inheritance and taking him to court for that, which I decided to stop because of how on my own I am in my family; taking my landlord to court for disrepair; calling out the bully at work who is trying to say that it wasn't him, he's innocent; calling out someone for sexual harassment. Petty behaviour from romantic interests and other women - the woman at the gym who I now call skeletor, that seems to have had it in for me since day one. It's always some competition or another, with everyone wanting to win and me just feeling like I need to protect myself.

End TW

Why is everything so heavy when I feel like I'm just standing up for myself? Does it go back to how much conflict was in my relationship with my m and I feel like I constantly had to stand up to her/protect myself?

TW

The memory popped up of when I was 14 and my m pinned me to the floor and told you're not stronger than me yet because I wanted her vintage top from when she was a teenager, and I don't think I took it off. Or I was protesting. We always fought, or I fought (for myself? to be heard?) and then had to concede because she would just try to overpower me. I guess on some level I'm still fighting to be heard and that sucks. What happens if I stop fighting to be heard? All these feelings come flooding back in, or am just met with the vastness of having people in my life who are unable to love me and who feel like they're able to oveerpower me?

End TW

Long post, just needed to vent all this because the emotional side of trying to understand connection/lack of connection with someone that seemed interested, or dealing with these situations is something I would like to, and feel I need to, start unpacking. Though I do feel shame in sending the texts and not being able to just let it go 
   

I bought some Turk's Cap lily bulbs this fall and potted them in small containers on my indoor window sill with some mix from my outdoor containers that, FYI/TMI, the neighbour's cat has been using as a au plain air loo. I wanted to see if I could force the bulbs for indoor planting. Having no idea what I was doing, and lacking follow through, they sat on my kitchen counter until March (?) when I decided to plant them.

I've developed a collection of what I'll call rebel flowers/plants. I don't really want to call them weeds as one as these pretty pink flowers. Weeds suggests something that's not supposed to be there that you have to take out and kill, when all along, they have just been floating on the wind, trying to find a home. Maybe I feel some affinity and connection to things that survived like that. Who am I to be a judgemental gardener? Something that I'm now learning through one of Patrick Teahan's videos was probably the result of a boundary crossing growing up.

I didn't think the lilies would grow, but maybe a month ago, a shoot started. Everything else looked like they were buried in this brown muck. Somewhere inside, I think I reprimanded myself (oh those familiar voices) for not knowing what I was doing and feeling like I failed; I could have been better, done better. I noticed about a weeek and a half ago that more shoots have started. It is not a lost cause (oh look, another phrase my gf used to call me). I guess sometimes things just need a little space and time to grow.

Something that's been coming up or more apparent lately is this internal sense of panic when something needs to be done, or there's something unexpected to deal with ie problem etc. I guess in the past there was always procrastination and reluctance to deal with it, or frustration, but now I'm feeling the panic when it happens. I'm guessing this has to do with having to deal with things that were beyond my scope growing up, nit being adequately parented and given age appropriate task, given criticism when I would make a mistake etc.

But what I'm also noticing is that I think there is an internal "fantasy" of things are ok, and this is how I am ok. So, when something comes up and shatters that in a sense, feelings break through. I feel like I'm becoming aware of how that internal sense of fantasy, or bond, maybe goes beyond just romantic interests, but is in being a certain way, or having a life that is a certain way etc. When I was discussing things with NARM t she said there is a sense of "I'm ok" that I have, which I think is true to a degree. However, I think it's I'm ok when I'm on my own and am involved in this world/sense of safety that I have somehow created. When connection (intimacy), or something else comes into the mix, it throws it into disarray I think. We also discussed how every time I find a bit of space inside, the impending doom, or critical voice pops up that something isn't safe etc, which is what this feels like. I have a bit of space (and idea that things are safe) then something intrudes and all of a sudden it's not safe.

These are not life and death situations either, this is being called about a payment that didn't go through for some reason, or having to provide a bank statement for a refund etc. On the other hand, when I am in the "right frame of mind," I can do all these things and handle them etc. I just think something shifts in my internal world.

I had a session with NARM t and discussed the above --the idea of connection and what might be holding that back; the bond that still exists to my family probably in the form of a fantasy of wanting them to love and accept me on some level, and the idea of being an unloved child (or as she put it, that they weren't capable of loving me). It was quite heavy with a lot of emotion and I guess I am beginning to process the grief behind all this, which I don't know if I've done before. I guess on some level I always held out hope of receiving this "love," in the form of coming from another person. I just wanted to not acknowledge those feelings because 1) it feels quite directionless and vast when they come up to be "unloved" and 2) it's hard to orient myself and know what I want/where I'm going/how to relate/connect to other people when I'm aware of them. I guess this is because I never had a formed "self" as a child (not Self as in IFS Self).

NARM is interesting in that it tracks emotional changes that happen in a session. For example, as I was explaining these things, and how it was to grow up around my gf where everything had to be done according to him, and if not, you were hopeless if you made a mistake etc., my voice was quiet like I was struggling to talk. I then had a moment of feeling like I was manipulating the situation, and "performing" all of this, trying to get attention. My voice became deeper and t said I crossed my arms over my chest. When she asked me what had happened, I told her what was going on inside my head, but I don't know where this stuff was coming from? Did I think I was performing because when I was sick as a child my m would ask me if I really needed to be in the hospital, as if I was making it up? Maybe I did on some level to try and get basic attention that I was otherwise denied. (Though I did have quite bad asthma at times). So, now my response is to shut down emotion/connection where I feel like I have to deal with these things on my own? Ironically, or similarly, this was the issue that triggered me a lot with my gm where she would get sick (though not take care of herself), and we would have to rescue her. I did feel like my attention was manipulated.

There was another instance when we were talking about self and I was explaining the vastness, that she asked me about the self, and it popped up and said I'm right here. I felt such an strong sense of sadness and awareness of how it couldn't be present. I don't know how to describe it, I think this is just the grief.

I watched some of Patrick Teahan's videos, which are very good, and there's one specifically about childhood trauma and limerance. Some of the things he's explaining really stuck out to me:

"when a child is not the centre of someone's world in a good enough way, they'll try to find a home in other people"

"(as if) waiting for a rescue"

"limerance is about being malnourished for connection - to be seen, to be safe"

"children need their person who is interested in them, seeks out time with them, and shares a special connection with them"

I don't know if I would fully label my experiences as limerance, but I do relate to a lot of the above, and think there is some fantasy/longing that a romantic interest will be that person who is interested in me, seeks out time with me etc. I also feel like there's some awareness (or self sabotage?) where I know a connection isn't going to be like the connection to my family, or am comparing it to that, and so nothing is ever "good enough" on some level. I don't feel I edge in the obsessive fantasy side of limerance though, and there is me who is aware that I have to do things on my own? Maybe this is the isolation, and wanting to maintain a connection to the ideas in the family, the life they wanted for me. I also do feel like there is a need for me to be seen, loved that is maybe strong (desperate seeming?) to another person. It's not really about getting to know them as a person, but playing out all this childhood stuff.

Limerence, Attachment, and Childhood Trauma
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvi9pDnIxb4

I'm also going through some of his other videos and there's quite a bit that stands out. I guess they're quite hopeful that you can actually come out the other side if you've gone through these things.

Wishing you a speedy recoveryy NK

So, I've only started looking at this, but I feel feel like my "beliefs' about the person I was romantically interested in may have just set myself up to reaffirm my isolation. I went into the situation thinking, or projecting, that this person isn't a relationship person and they like gym bunnies. Basically, being defensive from the get go. The interactions I had with that person then became about trying to prove, if only to myself, if that was/wasn't true. In my head, I think I was shut down to connection because of the fear of this being true. Then there was a need to push things, or have things happen in a certain way (ie roll over and show their belly I guess that there was no danger), but that's not what relationships, or connection is built on. Someone can't be like that all the time, bending to my "will." I think that would make me just like my m/gm. Connection is about being open and letting people "see" you, which is a very layered (and dangerous feeling) thing for me I think.

I also feel, and am beginning to realize that this kind of "idea," or feeling about someone and what I hope to happen, is maybe a facet of limerance, or a fantasy bond where I am hoping x person will love me and see me in the way that my family didn't. I think fantasy, or imagining this kind of ideal acceptance, is/was a way of dealing with the pain that happened/was going on --the treatment that I blocked out, and just sort of hoped that someone would see the "good" in me, and what kind of a person I was.

I don't think that's especially romantic, or relationship evoking on one hand, and is just a way of continuing to bury the shame and pain because how do you begin to say, even to yourself, that I wasn't loved as child? I don't know if it's, "if I show up as myself then maybe this person will then see that I'm not worthy of love like my m did" because let's face it, that's what her actions said (and as a side note, is probably why I get so triggered if a romantic interests words and actions don't line up, which then makes me look needy/crazy wanting to have directness, but again, I don't think this is especially true for how dating works or things start out. I just had a childhood where people told you they loved you and their actions did something else). But in order for someone to actually start liking you, I guess they need to see "you," which is the good you and the you that has all this pain. Or maybe not? I feel like the pain is maybe quite close to the surface and always feels like something I'm trying to hide, or keep at a distance from people, which I guess makes me seem inauthentic? And thinking about it, I guess makes me emotionally unavailable. Hmmmm.

I guess the problem is when I start to open up those feelings where I feel like the unloved kid, or the way my m treated me, it makes me want to isolate and not be around people because it's such a deep feeling of shame? not fitting? feeling awful? How do I begin to integrate that? I guess it also doesn't feel safe and I want someone to make it ok, but I guess I'm the adult that's going to make it ok. I think there's still a big feeling of "not wanting anyone to know" operating. I guess maybe because I think it was me/my fault? But rather I guess that it wasn't me and I was conditioned to think like that. (Up pops a feeling of sympathy for the family and their life circumstances, where I guess I'm taking responsibility , or just taking things on as usual, and I have to think that if I have a choice to be different, so did they. Maybe something to unpack/remember here).

There was another article by Firestone's wife unfortunately (I'd really like more information on limerance and fantasy bonds where it isn't by a manipulative narcissist or his wife) where she talks about the fantasy bond between mother and daughter, and how the daughter (and I'm sure granddaughter) will sacrifice their relationships etc to keep the bond between them, or to help the "sick mother" essentially. She quotes a German psychiatrist from the 60's named Joeseph W. Rhinegold and his book, The Fear of Being a Woman who, like Firestone, is not well written about though does draw from a lot of research. I really wish there was something more contemporary and not coming from obscure sources because I do wonder if this is something I'm doing subconsciously. A relationship could cause tension in the family because on some level they (gm and gf?) wanted me to remain a child forever, and I wanted to be loyal, and/or not do anything to rupture the safety of that relationship.

Looking at some limerance topics on reddit, it's interesting to see that is was used by people who were emotionally neglected in childhood and I guess is an active defense to help process that pain, and to survive. I don't think I'm obsessive, but do think these ideas about people mask the pain in a way underneath.

Hey Slashy,

I feel like I went through a similar discussion when my t queried my drinking a couple glasses of wine in the evening to unwind. No, I can quit at anytime etc and I did over the past two years where I've been treating mycotoxins which adversely affect the liver. So, not wanting to mix the two, I went cold turkey. This past xmas I bought a bottle of wine because xmas. What I noticed this time that I hadn't picked up on was it was like my body was addicted to it and before I knew it, I had half a bottle pretty quickly. I did buy another, and another after that I think, but then stopped. Mentally, I could stop and everything is fine, but I guess it was hard to stop while it was going on. I mean why not have another glass? It's only two. I can understand how these things get out of hand pretty quickly and how maybe they're used to cover up things that we aren't even aware are there. I also know that I have the addiction gene and there is alcoholism in my family.

That being said, I wonder if opening up in therapy and starting to deal with feelings/events etc will help your sleep in a more natural way? I'm also a big proponent of health issues getting in the way of sleep as well. So, it could be something physically that's impacting your cortisol etc.

Sending you support,
dolly

hmmmm that's disappointing

https://www.thebobcult.com/?m=1

edit: was trying to do some digging and find a critque of The Fantasy Bond and came across a post that called Robert Firestone out as a manipulative narcissist. It's hard to take the theory of the book on knowing that even though there are a lot of things that really resonate. I guess I can take what fits. His description of parenting is scathing, but also pretty close I feel to what I experienced. He says:

"An honest, unloving father or mother will do far less damage to his or her child than a role-playing, "loving" parent. A rejecting and unloving parent will cause a child pain, but a dishonestly rejecting parent causes the child pain and makes him or her feel "crazy." This type of parent causes the child to become unsure of the ability to think and perceive correctly and ultimately causes the son or daughter to develop symptoms of psychological illness. When parents cannot bear to know that they are rejecting their children, they systematically cut off the children's opportunity to express themselves."

I feel this is exactly what happened growing up, especially with my gm.

"Many people spend their entire lives in a futile pursuit of the love  that never existed or that was withheld from them by their parents. They have internalized a strong negative image of themselves that they stubbornly refuse to change because the whole myth would crumble if they were to receive and accept positive responses or genuine recognition from another."

I feel like that last statement is true and perhaps is the reason behind why I isolate. I am looking for someone to "see" me as they didn't, which I feel gives me the "right to exist," and then everything will be ok. Meaning, the self-hatred he describes would go away. However, I also feel like I reject that closeness, because it's not coming from a "specific place/person" ie my family. I guess on some level that is the only opinion that matters. (It's interesting in context of the "see through door dream, where maybe I was scared about people "seeing me.") Though, again, I think it comes from such a young place that I don't even realize that that's what I'm doing. Looking at narc relationships, you are in a fantasy bond with them. They tell you things that you want to hear in order to manipulate, and have the things (feeling good etc) that they want. It makes sense that I have been in a fantasy bond with my family since I was born, and I guess on some level I am trying to replicate that. That's what I was born/conditioned to do.

I know I have spent a lot of time vehemently protecting my "world" and keeping people out. I think mentally, I was following the family line of you can't trust people and no one is really going to be there for you except family. It's so difficult because I feel like a lot of my adult experiences have confirmed that. Though admittedly, I also haven't been the most open person and on the cycle goes. I will try and work on the part that wants to change with NARM t. However, Firestone's description of manipulative parenting also cements my fears (?) in a way, that no one is really genuine, or most. There's always something behind it. And here's the part where do I want to listen to another manipulative narcissist and their worldview haha. I guess it's just so familiar. Maybe my brain is just finding that one piece of information that validates what it believes. Anyways, something to chew on. I guess the one true thing is that I was in a fantasy bond from birth.

Thanks Chart - it is so deep and ongoing, but we are rewarded with getting to be our authentic selves at the end of it. Not to deter you, but I was thinking in relation to what I was writing yesterday and how my second t asked me nearly 20 years ago, how does it feel that no one ever really loved you growing up? Yesterday was the first time I "got" it. It's taken me 20 years to comprehend and begin to integrate what he was talking about. I did better with the fact that my mother was a narcissist and that took me 12 years or so to begin to look at that one haha. I also wasn't able to understand/comprehend a lot of the Pete Walker book the first time I read it, or it took me 7/8 years to come back to Healing Developmental Trauma and beging to understand it's significance. These fantasy bonds that shape our reality and the idea of who we are are strong, strong stuff. We needed these things as kids and babies to survive, and they are very important on some level.

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So, in simple, logical terms I feel like in my head I think if this person would love me, then I wouldn't be unlovable and have to deal with all this pain, and face the reality (of my family and what it was like); it's like I keep wanting someone to love me in this way so I wouldn't be unlovable. I'm not wholly sure what in this way is tbh. I have a feeling it's this amorphous thing that no one is ever going to be able to solve, and I just keep getting the result where I keep feeling unlovable. I don't think this is as t said that I keep picking people who can't love me etc because I feel like even if they did, I wouldn't accept it. And on it goes - I can't accept it, and I am left feeling unlovable.

The author talks about a client who would cry when the villan was humanized in movies, or shown to have redeemable qualities and said, "Mike firmly believed that he wanted positive recognition and good treatment from these people, when in fact he wanted it only in fantasy and could only tolerate it vicariously in books, plays or movies."

"Most people are afraid of leading separate, independent lives and therefore cling to family ties and fantasies of love, which offer the illusion and false promise of connection. People prefer the imagined security of religion and immortality and choose destructive bonds which deny their aloneness. They give up a free existence and the intimacy and closeness that is part of a genuinely loving relationship in a desperate attempt to find fusion with another person."

What's interesting, or difficult, is that I don't think this is especially conscious, and is hard to pin down because it happened so early, and am unaware of how much that need for "safety" impacts my life. I think this is where the NARM and connection survival strategy come in. Safety, on one hand, also makes sense. It's something you want to a certain degree especially if you've had a chaotic upbringing. So, while I feel like an adult part of me understands the ups and downs of dating and relationships, that I have to be ok etc, there's also another part I think that very much wants this fantasy bond where everything is ok (and safe). When that mask/reality slips a little, all the feelings of being unlovable come up.

[Later, the child appears to avoid love and affection and may have a tendency toward behavior that provokes anger or hostility in others. Sensitive adults may even sense within themselves hostility and feelings of loathing toward an unloved child.]

Thank you Chart - I'm glad to hear you could relate to some of the things I wrote. I always learn a lot from her videos. This is the one I was watching yesterday. The videos on toxic shame and fearful avoidant attachment are also interesting to me.

Why Limerence Can Be Harder To Get Over Than A "Real" Relationship (And How To Do It)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWvSsp1zkfg

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I read somethhing in thhis book that is kind of blowing my mind tonight.

"In observing rejected infants, the author has noted an important characteristic in their mothers that appeared to damage them. This was the mother's (unconscious) refusal to let herself be affected or moved by the emotional experience of feeding or caring for the child. Other observers have noted that this type of mother seems to avoid her baby's loving looks at the point when the baby first begins to recognize her. This avoidance is usually detrimental to the baby's subsequent emotional development." I feel like this is/was my mom's behaviour in later years. I'm sure it wasn't different when I was an infant, only perhaps being "loved" when I did things she liked

The symptoms in such an infant are a general dissatisfaction, often consisting of whining, an inability to relax against the mother's body (or, on the other hand, a desperate clinging to the mother), excessive crying, and a "spaced-out" or pitiful, pinched look on the face. Later, the child appears to avoid love and affection and may have a tendency toward behavior that provokes anger or hostility in others. Sensitive adults may even sense within themselves hostility and feelings of loathing toward an unloved child.

"feelings of loathing toward an unloved child" I guess it's the recognition that I was an unloved child and that it was a fantasy bond in the family trying to hide that that was the case (and from myy gm to try to make up for it in a way, probably having to do with her own feelings of guilt as a parent). I guess it's just connecting the dots. If I had to put my finger on it, I would probably say that there was a lot of that feeling unloved under the surface as a teenager/young adult. That's the thing you don;t want to talk about or feel and people are pretending isn't going on. I think in naming it, there's also a feeling of wait a minute, I can love myself. But it's that initial wake up of, I was an unloved child. Thank god I had my dad or I don't know if I would be the person I am today.

No wonder I go into these romantic situations too, and feel that it's devastating when something happens, it ends, or whatever. I'm left with the feeling of being unloved/that no one is going to love me, which I guess is related to feeling I have the right to exist if they care about me. But I understand too, on some level, that I will be ok and survive without them. There's just this pull of old feelings and I think this is what it is - that I am unloved and it brings up all of that old stuff that I didn't have a name for, was told didn't exist.

It's kind of crazy because I remember my m saying to me, you do know I love you right, and this is the same woman that I threated to call the cops on the last christmas we spent together if she touched/hit me, which doesn't feel like my life but it is.