I've been listening to a few of Dr. Ramani's youtube videos and this one was, wow!! for me. I thought she did a very good job of breaking down different types of parental narcissism. I think it's very often difficult to see how something is "covert" or "overt." I tried for a long time, with lots of back and forth, to see how my gm or m fitted in, and it raised doubts if they were a narcissist etc. I see now that my gf was a self-righteous narcissist and the description fits him to a tee, even down to being miserly and overly cautious with money. My m is probably an opportunistic narc though also with traits of grandiose, my sf a malignant narc, and my gm a covert/victim narc. Maybe I get a prize for one of each hahaha (besides a lifetime of trauma and a robbed childhood of course).
I think it's a lot more validating for my experience to know that no matter if I was gaslit, this was a thing.
The 5 types of narcissistic parents
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU7U7srYz6U
I just watched the video.
I confess it was the first time I've ever seen any breakdown of the various types of Narcissists. It's wet my whistle now to want to learn more.
While watching, I saw some new information that made me, for the first time in history, see my dad as a narcissist. In the video, when she was describing the sad, pathetic, victim; the covert narcissist, I saw Dad in all his glory. Poor Dad. Pooooor sad, victimized Dad. If only I could be a better son, maybe Dad wouldn't have to suffer alone in his selfish, sad, poor, poor life. Gads. Now I can see him for what he really was. A manipulative jerk, pretending to love his kids as much as he loved himself! He did NOT.
What really gave me the ah HA moment was when I recalled how the three youngest of us kids always felt sorry for him. In the last few months of my baby sister's life, she talked about how she hated Seattle weather and wanted, with all her heart, to move to Maui. I asked what was stopping her, and she responded with "Mom and Dad will die if I leave them." Sis was 42 at the time. Mom and Dad were in their 70s, and were very well funded with money, and neither were handicapped in any way. My poor sister was emotionally trapped by their pathetic, "poor me" BS, which was a feeling my idiot brother and I both felt, but not to the degree that she did. I believe it was what led her to her own, untimely passing. Dad never mourned her death. Mom did. Mom's death happened shortly afterward, and I believe it was driven by her own guilt and sadness. But Dad. He acted like it was a nonevent. AI had to make excuses in my own mind why my loving father didn't mourn the death of our beautiful, kind-hearted little sister. I made up all sorts of excuses in my own mind so that I wouldn't feel offended by Dad's lack of love for his own baby's death. He didn't. The only comment he would make was as if he was talking about an old car he once had. He'd say "Oh yeah. She was a good kid." Then...nothing. No emotion. No more comments. In fact, I remember now that he became many times more selfish after little sister's passing.
I'm feeling a whole new anger now. I think this new knowledge is a new light in the darkness that is going to help me get past some more old confusion.
Learning about the different types of narcissists is empowering. Had I known what I know now, when Mom and Dad were still alive, I'd have been empowered to see through their sickness and handle my relationship with them better. I also may have not taken so much of their sickness into my own personal self-esteem. I'd have seen more clearly that THEY were sick, and I was in their way. If my little sister had known then what I know now, perhaps she'd be living happily ever after on the beaches of Maui by now.
So, Dolly, thanks for sharing this YouTube video. You've awakened a whole new field of research for me to now learn that there are different types of narcissists. This is an interesting new game changer for me.
Thank you so much, Dolly. This video was truly eye-opening, I was starting to feel like my dad was actually a narcissist but he didn't quite fit any of the descriptions I found online and so I was left very confused, questioning both myself and what was going on in my life. But now I know that he is an absolute textbook "covert narcissist" who is incredibly skilled at portraying himself as a victim and blaming others constantly. The video explains so many of my childhood experiences and the abuse I continue to receive today. It explains why he is always so full of anger but can never take any responsibility for his furious outbursts because he sees himself as the victim. And it explains why he always used me as a scapegoat for everything that was wrong in his life. Many of the things that dr. Ramani mentioned in the video I have actually heard from his very own lips, so I hope that this will help me cope with those situations better and to feel less guilty about everything that happens.
For example today he ended up shouting at my mum because she went to see a friend who's birthday it was and felt that spending 2 hours with a friend was way too long as she kept him waiting for such a terribly long time, which he didn't deserve. He even went on to say that my mum didn't love him at all and that everyone was more important to her than him even though he was being such a great, helpful husband and supported her so much during her illness.
As I listened to his angry tirade I was really scared and confused because I didn't understand why he made such a big deal out of it. But his face contorted with serious hatred and contempt and he kept shouting on and on even though he knew perfectly well that my mum had only had a heart attack 2 weeks ago and should be treated gently.
After watching the video this all seems a lot clearer. It doesn't take away the fear I have of him but it certainly is helpful to know and makes me realise more than ever how sick he is (and that I have to do whatever I can to escape his constant abuse while I can).
Tks for the resource Dolly, always happy to see more nuanced understanding of issues. This one hits home for me.
I'm glad you guys found it useful.
PC - I'm sorry your father said that about your sister
M&H I hope you're able to put some distance between you and your father.
Kizzie - glad you're feeling better.
It's hard to discern this behaviour when you're born into it. I'm hoping it also helps me break down and see peoples' behaviour differently, so that I can identify if someone difficult is a narcissist and adjust my response.
This was the other one which I also found very validating, especially around the idea that the narc may have had trauma, or came from a traumatic background. Sometimes I feel like my therapist wants me to see this, and I do, but it also puts me on edge because I feel like it excuses the behaviour, which I've already lived a lifetime of it being made ok. In the video, she makes it very clear that trauma doesn't excuse NPD behaviour and they have a good enough sense of right and wrong ie they know how to behave at work. They chose to behave like this and the child is an easy scapegoat.
How to think about your narcissistic parent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1JVHyTBAbw
QuoteIn the video, she makes it very clear that trauma doesn't excuse NPD behaviour and they have a good enough sense of right and wrong ie they know how to behave at work. They chose to behave like this and the child is an easy scapegoat.
That's it isn't it Dolly, they do choose to give into their need for attention, dominance, control, superiority, etc. I do understand they have suffered trauma, I know my M did and that she has an small ego that needs feeding but while I'm compassionate I can't forgive because it does feel like I'm excusing her behav and younger me just can't manage that because I was an easy target and she was supposed to love an protect me.
N's really are a huge problem in this world IMO so I'm thrilled to see more and more awareness about them. Maybe the psych world will come up with some good treatments, doesn't seem to be too much for them at the moment.
I agree and it's such a hard thing to stand by to make that choice, to stand up for yourself because it almost goes against your empathic instincts to help people and want to love them, especially family.
They are a big problem in this world. I was going to start a new thread after chatting with Papa Coco about social media on the rise of narcissism through social media. I think it's a thing as they now have a platform to express themselves. I'm also very curious about the evolution of narcissism. I think it's a similar thing to CPTSD and that it changes as people find out more about it. Apparently narcs can be self-aware now, though not change their behaviour, and there's such a thing as NarcTok on TikTok?
It also got me to thinking about survivors of narcissism and how they/we are triggered by social media culture. I think narcissist gets thrown around a lot, but is not necessarily true for everyone. Even though everyone can exhibit narcissistic behaviours at certain times, it doesn't mean it's a clinical NPD diagnosis. Though I guess it does brings up what is the NPD spectrum as it's a spectrum disorder? Self-centred, self-absorbed, and selfish behaviours which do have some degree of empathy, but are also reminiscent of narcissism and abundant in social media, would be potential triggers. Though these behaviours are deemed "ok" etc.
https://upjourney.com/selfish-vs-self-centered-vs-self-absorbed-vs-narcissist
Self-aware N's - hmmm. I have always thought of N's as having lost the ability to self-reflect. I wonder if these folks are true N's or perhaps are just attention seeking (any attention is good attention?), "It is possible a person could be self-centered, or selfish, or self-absorbed and not be narcissistic. " (https://upjourney.com/selfish-vs-self-centered-vs-self-absorbed-vs-narcissist)
Despite the pain N abuse has caused me I am fascinated by it, how it comes about, the nuances of it, treatment, social/political ramifications (especially after Trump) etc.
Nice to have these discussions again!
I'm not sure but apparently they've been diagnosed as NPD? It's fascinating stuff as you say!
https://www.vice.com/en/article/4aw5y3/self-aware-narcissists-tiktok
I've got a lot of thoughts on this that are coming up lately and there's a rise in narcissistic behaviours which might be then triggering to survivors of narcissistic abuse. Apparently, there was a book written in 2009 called, "The Narcissism Epidemic," about the overall rise in narcissism.
http://www.jeantwenge.com/the-narcissism-epidemic-book-by-dr-jean-twenge/
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2017/06/28/a-rise-in-narcissism-a-root-of-americas-crisis/
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/02/narcissism-epidemic-self-obsession-attention-seeking-oversharing
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/11/group-narcissism/620632/
Vulnerable Narcissism in Social Networking Sites: The Role of Upward and Downward Social Comparisons
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.711909/full
Narcissism and Social Media: The Role of Communal Narcissism
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8508105/
Social Media is Shaping a Whole New Generation of Narcissists
https://medium.com/mind-cafe/social-media-is-shaping-a-whole-new-generation-of-narcissists-e3f6cd746131
"a recent study proved that people exposed to narcissistic reality TV presented higher levels of narcissism shortly afterwards" :stars: Wow, I would like this to be proven wrong.
Dr. Ramani also brings up cultural narcissism which is also a new kind of a ha moment. I think I need more time to string together a post with all these ideas but it was interesting to watch her talk/review of narcissism in The White Lotus Season 2 and who the actual narcissist was given all the narcissistic behaviours by other characters in the show. What was also interesting were the comments on how difficult it was to watch for some people healing from narcissistic abuse.
The BIGGEST narcissist in The White Lotus I Dr. Ramani
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMTj6AZFbP8
Wow Dolly, lots to read! I have to go to group in a few minutes so will reply later but wanted to say tks. :applause:
I know :stars: a bit of a mish mashh there but it's so fascinating and I haven't had time to go through everything, but that Narcissism Epidemic book is very interesting.
Apparently, narcissism only became a "thing" in 1989? It seems like it's a very new phenomenon, or our understanding of what exactly narcissism is.
I just read the summary and think I will get the book. I really like that apparently they talk about how to "minimize the forces that sustain and transmit it, and [how to] treat it or manage it where we find it."
That's the kind of info I've been looking for, a kind of "Yes but what can we DO about it?" question I've had and any thoughts on how to deal with it would be so empowering for me. I often feel at a loss and disempowered by N's and honestly it's part of what brought me into this treatment program. My anxiety and depression over having been raised by N's and then a lot of life stresses were so exacerbated by Trump getting into power, then COVID and the anti-vaxxers. It just felt like I was no longer safe and there was nothing I could do about it, just like in my family of origin. I don't know if you saw the news about the "Freedom Convoy", anti-vaxxer truckers who held downtown in Ottawa hostage for weeks but that seemed to be the last straw. I slid downhill quite quickly from there.
It is fascinating to me too and I'm delighted absolutely that there is just so much info coming out. Maybe we will actually figure out NPD is a dangerous force in society and move onto how to prevent/treat it. :thumbup: :cheer: :applause:
:grouphug:
There was such a freedom for me when my mom died, knowing I was now fully free of all the highly toxic people in my life and I'd never ever ever have to let another one in. But it is distressing how groups can still disrupt and threaten lives with the same kind of behavior but as a group. Lots of love and support to you Kizzie and DollyVee navigating all the triggers that come up and bring you back to the trauma of being raised by narcissists. It sounds a lot like a trigger for flashbacks what you describe Kizzie. I'm sorry the last few years have been so tough.
There's a couple things that have clicked for me the past couple of weeks. One is understanding that there is such a thing as cultural narcissism, which I think is where it probably originated in my family. The other is better understanding my role in the narcissistic family. Once I realized that, oh man I'm a truth teller, a lot of patterns in my life started to make sense. Yes, I can see that the adage "get along to get along" works for a lot of people, so why do I feel the need to stand firm on the sexism I see in the workplace or call some people out on their bs when they're trying to put me in my place? I'm realizing that I did those things as a child and don't think I was ever really validated for it, or I then had to suck it up and become a scapegoat.
I think that scapegoats have it pretty bad in their families and they're the ones who are responsible for everything, blamed for everything. So, I can understand that perhaps outward signs of narcissism and when "things go wrong" can be quite triggering. Peoples' behaviour during covid where I lived was very difficult to deal with and really opened my eyes. Now learning about cultural narcissism, I can kind of contextualize it but also scary that rational discussions don't work.
It is a dangerous force and hopefully the government will, or people will pressure the government like in Australia, to put stricter controls and/or accountability on social media.
CULTURAL/GENERATIONAL Narcissists: Everything you need to know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvxpuuBH-Kk&list=PLaSy-g6A5sG3Jvh8Ru5k--D_0VUlZPpEw&index=25
When the truth teller grows up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRuWd7cpx5Y&list=PLaSy-g6A5sG3Jvh8Ru5k--D_0VUlZPpEw&index=20
When narcissism meets authenticity
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLWZ8UOiMUk&list=PLaSy-g6A5sG3Jvh8Ru5k--D_0VUlZPpEw&index=28
This is also interesting as well on the freeze response for me. There's also videos for fawn, fight and flight.
What narcissistic relationships do to your sympathetic nervous system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vmKnOhdCH0
The freeze response and narcissistic relationships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51hG5D3aYpo
One article to add about Dr. Brandy Lee who tried to warn the US and world how dangerous Trump was/is - "The Psychiatrist Who Warned Us That Donald Trump Would Unleash Violence Was Absolutely Right: The vindication of Bandy Lee." (https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/08/donald-trump-violence-mental-health-dangerous-jan-6-fbi-mar-a-lago-civil-war-bandy-lee-psychiatry-goldwater-rule/)
In reading the article I noticed that Judith Herman (first to propose Complex PTSD in the 1990's) was part of the fairly small group supporting Lee at first.
Thanks for the article Kizzie. Political leaders do have a tendency to shape ideas for people (the hope of Barack Obama for example) but to me, it's not everything. Leaders do come and go but there's been policies happening for a while that have helped shape Trump and what he was allowed to do for the last how ever many years.
One book that I've started but haven't finished, though it is very interesting, is Spencer Ackerman's Reign of Terror: How 9/11 Gave Rise to Trump. It's very "technical" and goes into detail on how 9/11 started a process of civil/democratic bypass in the name of terrorism. Also, how at the time, that the terrorism the US was focused on was brown/Middle Eastern etc and completely ignored a lot of the fringe groups and domestic terrorists (not that they even call them that) who were operating in the States at the time.
There's another book I read a few years ago during the beginning of the pandemic called Post Truth by Lee McIntyre which talks about living in an age of disnformation and how there is a long history of science denial (climate change, smoking) funded by corporations and sometimes backed by governments (Stephen Harper making it very difficult to access government scientists). To me, living in this culture is reminiscent of growing up without my own reality as a child and it does feel like a dangerous place to be and something we've been through before, but it doesn't negate our ability to get through it and survive like we did the last time.
Sending you a hug if that's ok :hug:
Hugs are always OK - tks and one for you :hug:
Wow, you read a lot!!
Ok good! Thank you :)
It's been my way to process and understand things. Maybe if I know how and why things work the way they do, then maybe it can help me understand how it affects me and I can do something about it. I think it's also probably related in needing to get to the "truth" of the matter in the same way that I needed to as a child.
For sure Dolly, I read a lot too although I've had to cut way back this year because of my anxiety and depression and treatment. We almost have to read as much as we do to get a handle on this.
Interestingly, this treatment centre (nor the hospital ward I was onn) never mentions the word trauma so a long way to go still. I lent my therapist some of my books. Yup, we're better informed than some in mental health field. Hopefully it will not remain this way!
I'm sorry you've had to cut back. It's interesting in the Dr. Ramani video I posted about social media and narcissism, she talks about how being a student in the late 90s and how they barely touched on narcissism as a subject. For me, that was around the time I was entering into adulthood and was maybe five years later that a t mentioned my m being a narcissist to me. Looking back on it, I can see now maybe why it didn't take, or it took me so long to actually consider it because it just wasn't a "thing" in the world. People weren't talking about narcissists, people would talk about abuse or really traumatic upbringings, but I didn't have that, and therefore, it must be me; I must be the problem. This of course was then reaffirmed by people who would dismiss my gm's actions as just "loving me." Meanwhile, narcissism grew at the same rates as obesity in the States and everyone acknowledged that, but no one talked about narcissism until the past few years (?).
I'm glad your doc is listening to you and taking things on board though, that's pretty hopeful :hug:
Actually she's an occupational therapist. I'm being discharged today and she gave me back my books. I don't think she looked through them. :thumbdown:
Trauma was not mentioned at any time in my travels through the hospital wards (x2) and this treatment centre. Considering I have dealt with 4 psychiatrists, several occupational therapists, social workers & mental health nurses during that time and none mentioned or seemed interested in trauma, I'm somewhat discouraged. It's like they know what they know and they aren't really open to/interested in learning about the prevalence of complex trauma in society.
:hug:
I'm sorry that sounds really triggering for you and what you're going through right now. It's like when we want help the places that we expect to find it (that reassuring presence etc) aren't there and it's like we're on our own again as we were as kids.
I do think there are supportive places out there though, and people doing the research into trauma and cptsd to bring awareness to this stuff :grouphug:
I don't want to take this thread away from narcissism but just wanted to say yesterday I attended the monthly Zoom meeting of the Complex Trauma Special Interest Group of ISSTS, my last as a Co-Chair and there were so many professionals (academics, clinicians and researchers) and some survivors like me agree in attendance I was really quite heartened. I told them about my experience and how much I believe we need to work to spread the word about CT/CPTSD. One of the new Co-Chairs emailed me this morning to say she's really interested in this as a project so halleluyah.
Anyway, now back to narcissism ....
💛 thank you Kizzie for your advocacy
That's great Kizzie :hug: Sounds like a good project for you
In the vein of not narcissism but related, I listened to this podcast the other day and she said some interesting things about the direction of therapy right now, and how it's very "male, right brain, clinical" way of approaching EMDR, and how the American Psychologist Association (?) actually removed some of her credits for doing practising this kind of EMDR.
Attachment-Focused EMDR – Tools & Techniques to Heal Trauma with Dr. Laurel Parnell
https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/emdr-170/
Just made me think of this thread.
I love, love, love this t-shirt at Therapist Uncensored - https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/32614379-its-my-amygdala?store_id=1319314. Great one to wear to initial therapy appointments! ;D
I'm surprised (and not) the APA removed some of her credits, I have heard from some well-known trauma professionals through ISSTS that the APA leadership is quite resistant to ideas that aren't generated by a tight nucleus within the org. And further, that they are not especially supportive of female professionals - I think that's a fairly kind way of saying there's a tendency toward misogyny which may be one reason Judith Herman's construct of Complex PTSD has still not been accepted by the APA. (Apparently there is some movement toward acceptance now that the WHO has included it in its ICD-11.).
Just one bit of news from the ISSTS before getting back to narcissism, there is a petition currently circulating amongst psych professionals to have the APA recognize a trauma specialization with the psych world. I find it hard to believe there isn't a specialization already but apparently not. :Idunno: The org really does seem to be slow to change and it may explain why many of us have trouble finding treatment. ANyway, if this is accepted it may make all things trauma more easily/readily embraced and open up treatment for us. Let's hope so.
This disappeared in the fray! That is a great t shirt. I've only listened to a few podcasts but I like their approach and it's good to see examples of what secure relating is. I think we're often told what's wrong, but not the steps to take on how to fix it or what it might look like on the other end.
It seems like there is a slow movement for change from pathology (you're BPD, NPD, histrionic etc) to trauma which doesn't seem to be a pathology. It feels very well if it's BPD that's your problem, but if it's trauma, it becomes a we problem (in the vein of Gabor Mate etc).
It's also really disheartening if misogyny is happening within the organization.
I have been quietly following along with this thread. It's really wild that changes I have seen in my adult life. I feel like I'm being constantly confronted with situations like mine where people are now either listening to the victims, really listening, or offering support and even justice. I mean to victims who were victimised 20 years ago. I am so grateful to Kizzie for talking for those of us who find it extremely difficult. I wish I could just hide in the background of those calls. Whenever things are feeling really bad I hear another story of someone in a similar situation than I was in and it being addressed majorly differently it makes me feel validated and heard, even though I never spoke. Misogyny is horrible, but it's changing too. It will change. I have hope. You all give me hope.
I was just sat here thinking of my son's medical class as I read your post Bermuda and am happy to say it's it is half female and half male and has students of all colours. If that doesn't bring about change, movement away from the old male, pale and stale (misogyny) approach, I don't know what will. The class took on a prof a while ago who they felt was fat shaming patients in his lectures and the Chair of the dept had a word with him so huzzah!
Anyway, I hope and pray those in medicine will learn about trauma (and cultural/gender tolerance) in a meaningful way because they are the gatekeepers to treatment and care. I have hope too :yes:
PS - I tell most medical people I encounter about this forum just in case their interest is piqued enough to have a look. My hope is it may help spread the word - every little bit helps :) You're right about Gabor Mate Dolly, he is doing a lot to spread the word bless his heart and being a physician himself, he has more ears than us. Christine Courtois is also making it clear it's not us, it's what happened to use, along with Julian Ford, Marylene Cloitre and Judith Herman to name a few.