Trust

[Dee]

This week in therapy I am working on trust.  My assignment was to write what makes me trust someone and what doesn't.  I have not many why I trust and a lot of why I don't.  I was curious and thought it would be a good discussion here.

Some of the reasons why (actually all):
honesty
good heart
keep confidence
supportive
genuine
transparent
how long I have known them and they didn't mess it up

Why I don't:
Lying
talking about people
being too friendly
asking questions
being too closed
judgemental
time knowing them
wanting something
bad listener (interrupts people)
being loud
gender
being inconsiderate
they way they look (remind me of someone)
age
authority (don't trust authority figures)
who their friends are
breaking promises
making assumptions
thinking they know me
giving me gifts
confusing me being nice with trust and being close

This is still a work in progress...

[sanmagic7]

this is really interesting to me, dee.  all my life i trusted everyone.  just like a child, i simply trusted.  i think because i didn't have any fear to speak of, i didn't get the messages i needed to not trust.  also, i couldn't imagine that anyone would want to hurt me (except, of course, the 'bad' people like in the movies).

every so often i would get a 'feeling', tho, like it was instinctual, that i might be in a dangerous situation and i needed to act and speak a certain way in order to get out of there.   that was always after i'd already gotten into the situation.  up till then, i trusted the people i was with or those who were around me.

after these past 9 mos. when i've eliminated people from my life who i'd trusted but discovered that they weren't who i thought they were, didn't act toward me the way i'd expect them to, i now trust very little just on principle.  i now feel basically on my own, more so than at any other time in my life.   i don't even really trust my daughter not to turn on me for some good i made.

i don't know how to trust now.  i've gone from one extreme to the other.  i think it's cool that you were able to make those lists for yourself.   i probably trust the people here more than anyone in real life.  how strange is that.  unconditional acceptance - i think that's why.  i don't feel like i've ever gotten that anywhere else from anyone else.   you all have allowed me to be me, and still stick with me even when i've screwed up.  that's a revelation for me.

maybe this will change for me over time.  i don't know. 

[Dee]

That is a lot of what my therapist said.  Most people trust until given a reason not to.  It sounded so foreign to me; why would anyone do that?  However, that is how you described most of your life.  It is no pleasure to always be suspicious of people.  I hope that this is not a permanent thing for you.  I am now working on learning to trust.  Also, I never trust my own instinct.  I simply don't trust myself to have judgement.  Because I don't, all people are untrustworthy until proven otherwise.

Like you, I trust the people here.  Maybe because I know, they know what is like to have trust taken advantage of and destroyed.

[Candid]

i probably trust the people here more than anyone in real life.  how strange is that.  unconditional acceptance - i think that's why.  i don't feel like i've ever gotten that anywhere else from anyone else.   you all have allowed me to be me, and still stick with me even when i've screwed up.  that's a revelation for me.

I've yet to see you screw up, san.

This thread has made me consider how much I trust myself. The boundaries/instinct injury issue comes up when I can look back on the many ways in which I've failed to protect myself, doubted my own perceptions, passively accepted or actively walked into scenarios that a minute's honest thought would show were dangerous, then -- to cap it all off -- berated myself a posteriori for my own stupidity.  It's like the snake swallowing its own tail.

We know where that started and we can't do anything about past blunders. We need to be able to trust ourselves now.

What's come up for me in the past couple of days is lying to myself and breaking promises to myself that no one even knows about. For example, every day starts with a cup of coffee and cigarettes. Every evening I'm a physical wreck vowing that tomorrow will be different. It's a bit of a handicap in trusting and being trusted by others when I can't trust me, isn't it?

Just my thoughts.

[Libby12]

Such an important topic. Trust in all types of relationships is certainly at the root of a lot of my problems.   I really cannot trust anybody outside of my husband and children.   Even then,  I feel it is only really my daughter that truly understands me.

It seems that every interaction,  with anybody,  however limited,  leads me to trust even less.  For example,  just within the last couple of days,  my in-laws who I trusted just a bit chose to consider someone else's feelings over mine, so I have lost trust in them.  A doctor prescribed a tricyclic antidepressant on top of my current AD which all sources including my neuroscientist dd says is absolutely not right and potentially dangerous.  I enquired politely to my neighbour if she had enjoyed her recent family party.  She started to tell me all about it until another neighbour arrived at which point she ignored me completely.  I said goodbye,  but she didn't even notice.

When I write these things down they seem quite petty,  but they all just go on my list of why people can't be trusted. It's so long now with so many examples that I really don't want to interact with anybody for any reason.

I remember in CBT that it is said that depressed /traumatised people have negative biases and just don't see the positive. Consequently I look out for this, and I do see good sometimes.  But in reality,  I just can't get over the feeling that most people aren't to be trusted. 

To me, the biggest question is whether people who haven't been traumatised by their past ( in my case, from the day of my birth, by a very damaged, cruel mother),  just get treated better in all of their interactions or whether they simply don't notice anything negative. I don't really know why this bothers me so much.  I suppose I am just questioning whether I am the cause of all the negativity I experience, thanks to the damage my nm did to me.  As usual,  everything leaves me feeling helpless and hopeless. 

Thank goodness for my family and my dog and this forum. 

Thanks for listening.

Libby.

[Candid]

... depressed /traumatised people have negative biases and just don't see the positive.

Yes. And in comes the corollary: am I right in seeing this [fill in the blank horror] or is it CPTSD bias?

To me, the biggest question is whether people who haven't been traumatised by their past ( in my case, from the day of my birth, by a very damaged, cruel mother),  just get treated better in all of their interactions or whether they simply don't notice anything negative.

A bit of both, I think. I wonder whether you can imagine a third possibility along with traumatised or not traumatised: people who grew up with adoring parents who told them everything about them was wonderful. Having had a mother like yours, I know intellectually that primary caregivers tell us in words and gestures who we are and how we fit (or in my case, don't fit) into the world.

Thank goodness for my family and my dog and this forum. 

You're far from helpless and hopeless, Libby. 

[Gromit]

Hi, something came up in my therapy, thanks to my therapist and her dolls (the many dolls which fit inside each other, but they are all different versions of a theme, this time dogs, don't know what they are called). So, I thought, rather than start a new thread, I looked for it and found this.

My therapist was trying to find who I trust, who I can be completely open with, who knows me, other than the smallest doll which represents myself. Normally it would be a spouse, or, as a child, a parent. Well, whilst my husband may see me in intimate moments I generally don't let him inside my head so much, I find it easier with strangers, here, or other closed invisible communities, or I just keep it to myself. My therapist thinks my children probably know me best.

Just recently, my son, is going through puberty. Some of his concerns, he brings to me, sometimes in the middle of the night as his worries keep him awake. Although I think his father should be able to help more, being male, he chooses me. A great honour. He also asks me who I would tell about my worries growing up. I tell him the truth, 'no one' and now I worry if that is the best thing to say, does it encourage him to be like me, unable to trust anyone? Finding it hard to be open?
Is this common? This inability to open up and trust the people closest? The fear is different, with my OH he is a tease at times, and not given to 'navel gazing' as he calls it. Whereas my mother was too interfering, jumping to conclusions, usually wrong ones that she could not leg go of.
Sorry for the length of this, just looking for some reassurance.
G

[AphoticAtramentous]

@Gromit: Are you perhaps talking about Матрёшка/Matryoshka dolls?

In my honest opinion, I don't think answering with 'no-one' to your son is a good idea... I think it's vital to trust at least a few people, to share your worries with. Generally I think people begin to trust someone when they find they have similarities, when they create a friendship, when they think; "I can probably tell them this because they understand what I'm talking about". And trust isn't a black and white thing. You can trust someone with one thing, but not another. Trusting people comes naturally to most I think... it just takes a bit of time and communication. But of course, people with CPTSD, Depression, etc, etc, they would struggle the most with this trusting thing.

[Gromit]

Yes @ Aphotic

Матрёшка/Matryoshka dolls, but they are all different inside, not just smaller duplicates. Such as different species.

I'm not sure saying I didn't tell anyone about my worries is a good idea either but I always try to be honest with my children. It isn't great to admit it, it is pretty isolating.

[Sceal]

When I started therapy I didn't trust anyone. Eventually along came a psychiatrist (I think?), he spent two years with me. The number one thing that I learned from him was trust.
The concept that trust isn't all black and white. You don't have to trust a person 100% in everything they do. You don't have to tell your friend all your secrets, but it's okay to trust your friend to tell her/him about your worries concerning x. That doesn't mean you'll trust her with your life. It'll just mean that you trust your friend enough to share something of you with the friend, and that you'll be respected for it.
I trust that my roomie will NEVER physically hurt me. But I don't trust that he would be able to protect me from physical harm from others. I don't think I am able to trust anyone 100%, mainly because I honestly don't trust myself 100%. Maybe there's something in there too?

[Dee]

Thanks Sceal, that's helpful.

[Echo]

I think I might try this exercise too. I have a weird relationship with trust, sometimes I trust too much and sometimes I can barely trust at all. Making a list would be a huge help, it's something to fall back on.

Honestly is a major one for me too.

[ah]

I'm the same as you Echo, I trust too much and too little. Simultaneously, for extra fun!

But thinking of it now, reading everything people wrote above, it makes sense.
I guess we had to trust our caretakers when they were awfully untrustworthy, when we felt and knew they were dangerous. So we learned forced trust, surrender masquerading as trust, without mutual respect. We learned that when we're pushed, we have to trust harder.

My way to make sense of it was a bit extreme, maybe too extreme for most but I haven't been in touch with people, literally no one, for years. The reason was I was surrounded by current day abusers and accomplices and I was so blinded by all the violence I couldn't make heads or tails of anything anymore. I went No Contact with my life and everybody. I felt I had to figure out where I was getting it wrong, because clearly I was; I kept meeting sadistic psychopaths at every turn. Staying away enabled me to see what a twisted idea of trust I had my whole life. When I'm attacked, I respond by acting like I trust my attackers ever more desperately and then I do anything it takes just to get their approval.

Real trust is probably related to respect, and vulnerability and safety. I guess it also has a lot to do with knowing what you like and what you dislike. Who you are. Things we maybe never got or knew very well.

[Andyman73]

I am slow to trust. And I have different levels. I trust my coworkers enough to make jokes, and let my guard down enough to not be anxious. Only one of them do I trust with my life. He's a Marine like me. We have shared our own personal stories, in bits and pieces. He has told me things nobody else, not even his very loving wife, will ever hear. And I have same with him.

I trust my parents enough to know they won't hurt me anymore. I know now, that they both have childhood trauma. And dad is combat Veteran of the Vietnam War. I do trust him as much as any.
Don't have friends IRL, so no trust issues....I suppose, right?

In general, I really just don't know. All of my abuse was hidden away as the memories were being created...so I do know a lot of my abuse would not have happened if I knew to be wary of people.

So, at 44 years old...I just don't know.

[Gwyon]

This is an interesting conversation,  thank you.

I particularly relate to this from Libby12:

To me, the biggest question is whether people who haven't been traumatised by their past ....  just get treated better in all of their interactions or whether they simply don't notice anything

While I know I often see harm where none was intended, I also know that i've been shamed and alienated during adulthood due to my fears and social awkwardness. I think people are drawn to those who give them what they want (make them feel good, entertain them) and avoid those who don't,  or who make them feel uncomfortable.  So it's a double-bind --  I have learned to be more cautious and protective to not be re-traumatized, and yet I have to also take leaps of faith if I want to build (or re-build) connections, as well.

I think more in terms of 'do I feel safe'. There are very few, and it takes a very long time.  And it seems that circle has gotten narrower over time.