I wasn't brought up religious. My mother had had brain cancer when she was 19 and decided at that time that she didn't believe in God because God would not have allowed her to become so ill. Her father was a Jehovah's Witness for a while. During his last years of life he was a member of the World Wide Church of God, which was later deemed a cult, from what I understand. My father's side of the family was not religious either, as far as I know. I do remember one of his sisters would occasionally take my cousins to church, but usually only on Easter or at Christmas. I took a course on world religions in college. My mother was upset about it and asked angrily if it meant I was going to be a "Holy Roller" from then on. I also took a Bible as literature course, but didn't learn much from it.
As I've gotten older, I've started to believe more and more that there is something larger out there. I have a number of friends who are Christians, so I'm able to talk to them some about spirituality. I took what's called an Alpha Course at a local church. The course was supposed to be an introduction to the Christian church for outsiders with questions. Most of the people in the course were church members who were maybe trying to reaffirm their beliefs. The course was taught with an assumption of belief in God. For instance, a question for discussion was, "How do you exhibit your Christianity at work?" Um...slow down there... It was tough to fit in there.
And that's where I'm going with this. I feel like I want more, but I'm not sure how to fit in or even gain access so that I may someday fit in. I've told my friends it feels like there's this secret club and everyone in it uses special language and knows all the inside stories and I'm on the outside feeling lost. I feel like the wallflower at the dance who would like to join in, but doesn't even know how to get herself onto the dance floor.
I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I think I'd like to be in a small group of people who read through the bible and learn together, but I don't know when those classes start, etc. When and how do I jump on board?
Anyhow, last night I was thinking about emailing the pastor at a church near my house just to ask these things and introduce myself because just showing up at church on Sunday morning never did much to help orient me. As I was thinking about this and what I might say, I heard my name being shouted sharply inside my head. I couldn't tell if it was my mother's or my father's voice shouting at me. Wow. Talk about an introject. It was clear "they" didn't want me to go down this path. Interesting. What else are they keeping me away from that could be enriching my life?
Hello Kat,
I too am quite confused about God and religion. When I was with my M and step F we would occasionally go to church for F's family. It never meant anything to them. The same old same old always happened. They just kind of faked their belief. Outsiders thought they were good church goers, ignoring anything off about us.
Now here with my real F it's a lot different. He and his parents, well my whole family, is very religious and I feel as if I kind of get frowned upon for not believing. And its not like I don't believe, I just don't know what I believe.
So there are others out there with you.
MR
Thanks for sharing your confusion. That might sound silly, but I mean it in the best way. It helps to know I'm not the only one.
I was brought up by an atheist and a Christian of a standard protestant denomination, who didn't/doesn't believe in some important parts of the religion e.g. forgiveness. I personally have a lot of troubling with forgiving, and I don't mean just FOO here, but I'm not opposed to it. But my Christian upbringer is. One set of grandparents also Christian and one atheist. Religion seemed to be a reason for them to 'have a go' at each other about their beliefs/non-belief via the grandchildren especially via me. I went to church sometimes as a child but don't feel I learned much of what it was about. Especially all that weird language nobody ever explained: "for I am a jealous god" (thought jealousy was a sin), "to judge the quick and the dead" (what on earth is quick?? - how are you meant to understand antiquated language as an 8 year old?) I was meant to go to keep my M company. :stars: I go alone all the time as an adult and have no problem with that.
I've come to some form of belief as an adult. I started going to church when I was physically unwell for a number of months. I don't believe everything that is said or meant to be believed but going does me good. It's as simple as that. I don't go every week but have phases where I go very regularly. I've had a few experiences with various forms of prayer, not just Christian, which came to me out of the blue when I was in a really bad way. Sometimes I talk about things I don't understand with friends who are practising Christians, i read the prayer book when sitting in church waiting for the service to begin, which is sometimes quite illuminating, and the priest uses the sermons to explain rather than exhort or harangue. That's enough for me, I let my belief develop as it develops. I'm not into attempting to rush that.
Speaking only for me, personally, i feel like a relationship with a creative, loving deity is the only reason I'm still alive. I was quite self destructive until I formed this relationship at age 25. I like the phrase in AA/12 step literature, "...God as you understand him." (Or, her.)
If God is an infinite being, then we who are finite cannot fully understand all that he is. I'm okay with that. I do admit tho on bad days i can't relate to him as a father figure or a brother. On those days i like to think of God as a spirit only, or I choose to relate to a more female interpretation of God.
It makes me livid that humans have perverted the name of pure love to suit their own twisted agenda.
Thank you for your responses. It's nice to hear from others and to know that there are various ways to go about this. I sent that email. It felt like a rather strange thing to be doing, but I also know that I need some guidance from somewhere. As I said, just showing up on a Sunday or a few Sundays did little to help me gain access. I haven't gotten a response yet. We'll see what happens.
I once told my T that I wished there was a place I could go at the end of the work week where I could sit down with friends and share a meal, sing some songs, hear stories told, give support to others and gain support, and form plans to make things better in others' lives and in the community. She's a devout Christian and nodded through what I said. And then I said that I realized what I was describing is church, but that my few experiences of church weren't much like what I was yearning for. She agreed.
Uh-oh. This topic is a virtual mine field that touches my core being, involves my entire life story and is very triggering, but I'll try and ferret out something.
My cptsd revolved around religion; I started life surrounded by abuse shrouded within a religious milieu. The FOO was bad enough; teachers at religious schools reinforced the pain and took it to new heights. I now can recognize them as extreme hypocrites whose behaviours didn't match their supposed message, which was mostly just a socially acceptable cover for their abysmal abuses. They were crafty, though; hiding themselves within a sub-group of a major denomination.
Bad as they were, I still retained some sense that there's more to religion/spirituality than their horrid example was.. My reference to them became a sort of role model reverse--I knew from them how NOT to live life hiding behind hypocrisy (and using kids as a foil for their spiritual b****).
Where am I now? Probably more spiritual than I would have thought, given that start. Spiritual to me means all of life--how it's lived, not just an intellectual doctrine or creed/theology, but a heartfelt expression of values. It's taken a long time, but I now have a better handle on the meaning of love and peace than 12 years of religious schools ever taught. It's like I've bent their perverted use of religion back to its essence.
Trying to find the original messages is like trying to remove layers of canvas painted over the first panel. Language especially becomes rusty, and at some point it's like using a product beyond its due date; it goes sour. And...means nothing.
The only sure guide is one's own heart. Do the actions match the messages? Do they acknowledge imperfection? Are their scriptures, if any, used as guidelines or inspiration; or are they forced on people, contradictions included? Seems like many just accept their words as if they do have some secret, but if it involves throwing one's own life away, the secret is pretty lame.
As I feared, I'm stretching up against my intent to be brief. Suffice to say that after decades of independent study, I've gone through several phases (see spiritual bypass discussion in religious abuse section of this forum) and have cleared out a comfort zone which is based on several wisdom traditions--think inter-spiritual instead of inter-religion; as the spiritual, for me, acts more as a pointer to what feels right regardless of specific doctrines or belief systems.
What it comes down to, for me--everything in life is spiritual no matter the doctrines that may or may not feel comfortable. How I 'be' my life is more important than how I 'do' it...values like love and peace, sure; but they better mean something, not just be nice words. Who decides? My heart.
When it comes to how to find a good fit, the idea of talking directly to clergy people might work, but it's like finding a good therapist--be careful if they venture into rote doctrinal talk in lieu of the values they express by whatever religious rites they may espouse. It's more about the feel than the doctrine; beware of secret ways and all that chummy clubbiness so many seem to hide behind (my abusers were masters at that disguise).
This probably makes me sound like some rank atheist, and I thought so myself for long periods. But I 've found it's a matter of finding someone with heart language I can relate to, whether it's 'churchy' or not. Then if they have a God message it may or might not make sense to what my heart longs for. Religion is another of those nice-seeming options for a way to live, but has its limitations especially if the wrong people seize its original tone. It's kind of like anything else--certain religions should come with an expiration date stamped on its carton.
Sorry for this post's length--it's a topic that hits me square on. A fair read some might be interested in is Alain de Botton's Religion for Atheists: A Non-Believers Guide to the Uses of Religion; it takes an approach that religion has value, but it takes a bit of probing to find it; hidden, as I tried to discuss above.
Hi.
I think you may be seeking your true Nature and trying to connect with this Nature in those around you.
It is Love.
There are many Paths to it, some religious, and plenty of ancient disciplines one can practice.
We are Spirit having a human experience, not human seeking Spirit. We already have it.
Companionship and guidance is good though. You are already showing your need, determination and discernment in the area.
Trust your feelings and let the experience evolve as it is ready.
Be blessed. LTLTR
i was raised christian, various religions, but as i got older i realized i never felt a spiritual connection. i, too, found it at an AA meeting, and it was nothing like what i'd been taught in church.
as the years went by, i tried on several different approaches to spirituality. none of them quite fit for me, mainly because i wasn't of that ethnic background. then i remembered a plaque on my wall growing up. it was a picture of a kitten and read 'god is love'.
that stuck with me. i could understand love, and connect it to a spirit. to me, then, god became intangible, neither male nor female,but pure spirit. and i'm able to see that spirit everywhere i go, so it doesn't have to be housed in a building for me.
it's been a trial and error pursuit of a 'higher power' for me, and it sounds like that's what you're doing as well, kat. i think the concept of god is so very individual and personal that we can only come by it when we're ready. then, it will be there. taking a look around, trying to find your place re: the spirituality that you seek will continue to be a learning experience for you until you feel comfortable at last.
good for you for reaching out. you'll find your fit eventually, of that i have no doubt. big hug.
The God-factor: Been down that road too, got to a point I felt it was a stressed belief got reassured when the Branch Davidians' did their little revolt in Waco and set the place on fire. I thought am I in a cult? Had to step back and look at me again. I was exposed to religion off and on throughout my early life, and thought that I was going to burn in * if I did not do the right thing, so guilt and shame was in great abundance. It felt like I could never live up the that so called goodness that others had or at least they made me think they have. Seen a lot of double standards, shallowness, twisted points of view and a sense of their righteous conviction of my life and what I was supposed to be. I had one person say to me that I had the gift of giving and they had the gift of receiving, how convenient that I am that persons new go to guy for what he needs or wants. If someone needs a favor just ask, but learn to accept if I say no. Many of other things happened to support my feelings of doubt and so I slipped away and have not been back since, I did take with me some of the values that I thought were of helpful to my life and still use them today. If someone seeks out, they may find that there is something that they can use to improve their life and I do not want to be a nay sayer because of my situation, questions are good even if we do not like the answer we get.
I've been watching Christopher hitchens on utube discussing god a lot lately.
I've also been planning to set up a stone circle, because I want to.
I have issues :)
Lol... "I have issues" made me chuckle. I am in favor of whatever helps us ... stone circle, whatever.
Hi Kat
I have a relationship with religion - none at all.
I also have a relationship with Spirituality.
we are not Human Beings having the occasional Spiritual insight and growth.
We are Spiritual Beings having a Human experience.
We veil ourselves in suffering and confusion. Your True Nature is bright and clear.
Some people find Church/Religion very beneficial. I prefer to commune privately with God.
LTLTR
If a god exists who makes all things happen then he better not pop into my local for a drink.
He would leave abruptly wearing a bar stool for a hat.
I do hold a grudge I guess.
Quote from: Rainagain on February 14, 2018, 09:57:30 AM
If a god exists who makes all things happen then he better not pop into my local for a drink.
He would leave abruptly wearing a bar stool for a hat.
I do hold a grudge I guess.
:yeahthat: :whistling:
I can imagine everyone on here having a Sherry in real life somewhere when the god who makes all happen pops in all smiling and friendly.
Be like an old cowboy film, trouble in the saloon!
Made me laugh anyway....
.
I too have been searching for the truth. I was raised Catholic and while I still take comfort in some aspects of the Gospel, the hypocrisy lead me to study " Comparative Religion." I soon came to the conclusion that any one Religion only had part of the truth. I believe together we might get closer to the truth, like the strength of corded rope but, in the middle and not at its frayed end! I too believe that there is a higher source, a Devine I guess but, our ability to grasp this knowledge is embedded somewhere in the part of our brain that we don't use!! ;)
So, what do I believe in? For now, without a shadow of a doubt, I believe in the power of LOVE and that's it!!!! Amen
In the words of a song I like....
'There are no gods and precious few heroes'
But kindness, or love or something like that would certainly get my vote.
Not sure I can square love and kindness with my instinct, which is 'Bash the unkind'
Might get it on a T shirt.
Might start a new religion.
Probably won't.
Quote from: Rainagain on March 19, 2018, 10:35:38 PM
Not sure I can square love and kindness with my instinct, which is 'Bash the unkind'
You know what, I think maybe they fit together very well. You aren't about to get a T shirt that says 'Ridicule the kind' any time soon, right? Kindness is a topic that engages you, whether it's there or it's missing you think about it as something that exists and is worth mentioning.
A person who's unkind doesn't, in my unhappy experience they see kind impulses as pathetic and to be bashed, not even worth a mention. When someone is unkind they enjoy it, with no urge to intervene unless it's to make matters worse for everyone.
Quote from: Rainagain on March 19, 2018, 10:35:38 PM
Might start a new religion.
Probably won't.
If you do,
please make it a hilarious one. Dark, beyond ridiculous, and beyond redemption. :whistling:
P.S. You could be a prophet. You've already got the big mad hair and beard.
Ah,
I had to lose the beard, and the luxurious eyebrows as my younger daughter visited and got upset, 'Dad, you look like a homeless person!'
Her boyfriend has a beard, but mine was the feral version of what he has.
It was a bit raggedy to be honest, I regret not having a better beard growing gene, but there it is.
I've been chuckling to myself about 'bash the unkind'
It could be a rock band, or a viking name like Odin one eye.
If I had a second t shirt it wouldn't ever be 'ridicule the kind', might be 'I have issues'
Or 'mostly harmless'
Today I should be wearing 'bad day, please back away slowly and avoid too much eye contact'
I've discovered I've basically been done over by yet another person and I'm struggling with that knowledge today.
Where was my hyper vigilance when I needed it? Makes a right fuss most of the time but let's me down when it could be useful......
;D Rainagain, thank you for your funny comments - they made me smile. Bash the unkind, indeed.
I think my boat is most like Woodsgnome's, a lot of my CPTSD comes from the so-called Christian stuff I lived through. I say so-called because there's many different ways for abusers to twist the Bible into something that lets them get away with literally anything, and if one is not lucky an entire church can get behind them. In my experience abusers (and enablers to a maybe lesser extent) look much more like super-duper perfect God-fearing Christians than the honest people in churches do. My NPD-F was beloved by our cultic church... and I am rapidly losing my ability to say semi-nice things about them all. Quite angry. Would like to call them names. Horrible people giving kids forced baptisms and exorcisms.
Anyway, onto something less triggering. :(
I always tried very hard to be a devout believer, but I've come to realise that the foundation for my 'faith' isn' faith. It's fear of doing the wrong thing, being punished, being 'bad'. So I came to the conclusion that I'd need to let go of it, because if the God of the Bible IS real, then as a God of love he wouldn't want me to be living out a fake relationship based on fear. I also can admit now that I don't really have any sense of a relationship with him, although some pretty miraculous things happened that helped me get away from FOO and at the time I used them to bolster my sense of God being there. But remembering them doesn't really help me much now, in somehow 'making' a spiritual relationship happen.
I'd quite like to build a stone circle, or something like that... but I'm scared of facing spiritual doom for 'doing the wrong thing' and engaging in something 'pagan'. This is all very engrained in me.
Anyway, best wishes to everyone.
Recently I've discovered some fascinating takes on the story behind most religions, but rather than try and go there, I'd just like to point out 2 books that are packed with sage advice on how to still take religion/spirituality somewhat seriously but with a much lighter, and to me far more sensible, tone on topics that have been mangled in the hands of the narcissist sorts of control freaks found in too many churches and most cults. The books:
1. HOLY RASCALS: Advice for Spiritual Revolutionaries, by Rami Shapiro...down-to-earth practical (and sometimes hilarious) look at finding spiritual depth while not getting trapped in the parts that denigrate common sense and are abused by church 'authorities'.
2. CRAZY WISDOM, by Wes Nisker. An excellent overview--well, okay, a romp, really--through a wide variety of Eastern/Western sages, holy fools, tricksters, and more. Like Shapiro's approach, this is a great way to see past the furrowed brows of the religious elite whose ultra-holiness is so twisted that it barely resembles what they say they're about.
There are more, but these two stand out for their originality and light-hearted but well-grounded approach as they, and their readers, search for what really matters while avoiding the traps of the holy bullies who dominate the scene.