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Thanks for making the distinction clear Dutch Uncle, that does help to clarify things. It may be an idea to have separate threads as Kayfly has suggested. That is:

1) Positive perceptions of religion - faith is helpful to members dealing with CPTSD; and,

2) Negative perceptions of religion - religious values/behaviour of perpetrator contribute(d) to the development of the member's CPTSD (abuse cloaked as religion wielded to shame, control, etc)

I am wondering if a third thread might be relevant for those of us who consider ourselves spiritual but not religious, or who have a personal philosophy such as humanism?   

In another thread Dutch Uncle indicated he would like to talk about how his FOO's religious beliefs were partly responsible for the development of his CPTSD. (See http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=2278.msg14996#msg14996.)

Given that discussions of personal faith may be very delicate/disturbing for some, the Mod Team would like to know how members feel about this.  Please let us know below or PM one of us if you'd rather keep your opinion private.

Tks!

It can be a very sensitive issue and as such I appreciate you asking the community and Mod Team DU ( ).

My own feeling is that as long as those posting are aware of the difference between sharing their point of view and trying to convert someone to theirs, any respectful considered discussion of religion or philosophy such as humanism is fine.  However, I will see what the other Mods think and in the meantime we would appreciate any feedback from members on this topic.

The only thing I would ask is that we don't explore this issue here given it will derail arpy's thread about traumatizing N's.  I have posed the question here in a new thread http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=2356.msg15014#msg15014 and would appreciate if you would reply there.  Tks!

SLC's thoughts really highlight for me just what we went through as children and why we developed CPTSD. How on earth could any child learn to effectively handle a snake?  It's hard enough as an adult that basically we have to don our protective gear just to be around them occasionally, but to be a child and at their mercy with no hope of escape except to dissociate - really, truly sad     

I could really relate to the advice "Abandon Sincere Communication When Communicating With The Insincere." As soon as I stopped trying to talk to the PDs in my life as if they were normal, things got easier for me and harder for them. Through OOTF I learned how to step around all the various land minds and traps they set, taking away the attention and reaction they need. It's really the only thing you can do when you have to be around them I agree MaryAnn. 

I got to a point though where I realized that managing them (being the snake handler) still made them a big focal point in my life and took energy I didn't really have nor wanted to give up any more.  Being LC/NC these days I don't have to armour up, avoid traps, think about everything I say as much which is how life is meant to be I think.

Hi and a warm welcome to OOTS Shattered.

I just wanted to let you know I was in a similar amount of pain about two years ago and it is nothing short of awful     I bottomed out big time. I had many types of assistance dragging myself out of that deep, dark place including therapy, medication, a face-to-face group and talking online at Out of the Fog and then here. 

It all helped but I credit posting at OOTF and here with so much of my recovery - everyone just gets it!  Eventually you begin to realize it's a stress disorder we need to heal from and not that we suffer from a defect of character or are bad, weak.... That takes so much of the blame and shame away.

One suggestion that worked for me is to de-stress what/whenever you can (I went no/low contact with my family who have personality disorders or are enablers, and moved), take it slow (I wanted to get this CPTSD thing over and done with and pushed myself too hard), and self-soothe as best as you can in the moment (I was not at all good at this, but it got easier as I recovered).

Best of all for me was to savour the realization that I was not alone any more. Somehow having people who understood anything I wrote connected me back to being part of the human race and to my sense of self.  I am so proud to be a member of a community of people who are some of the bravest people I have ever met, not to mention kind, compassionate and validating. I hope you find the same thing and that it helps you in your recovery. 

OK, done.  Click on "More" and you'll see some new ones.

Many thanks for the link arpy, it was a really hard and at the same time inspiring read; hard because it nails the traumatizing N and makes abundantly clear the damage they inflict (it's still hard to see that captured in black and white), and relief because it is becoming so much clearer every day that NPDs wreck havoc on those caught in their web.  I like the idea of using the term "traumatizing NPD" to drive home the point that a narcissistic is not merely someone who has a benign love or self, but is someone who causes major chaos and damage to those around them.

I do take some issue with Shaw's suggestion that there are only two paths children of traumatizing N's can take: The first, "To me, these persons are not merely depressed, or anxious, or deflated—they have lost the battle to develop and assert their own subjectivity; they have been forced to accept objectification; they have had to submit their own subjectivity to the subjectivity of the other."  It's a struggle to be sure, but I don't believe I "lost the battle," To me this implies that our subjective sense of self is gone and I haven't found that to be the case.

Instead I've been finding my subjective self, reigniting and reinforcing it, bringing it to the surface and integrating into a whole sense of who I am.  So, I do see a third path for those of us with CPTSD; that is, recovery and integration of our subjective selves. 

The second path for children of traumatizing N I've seen firsthand in my Golden Child B who ended up becoming a traumatizing N himself. "The other path I can identify that adult children of the traumatizing narcissist can take, as I mentioned earlier, is to do what the traumatizing narcissist has done: Erect manic defenses against any sense of weakness, need, and badness, and project all the shameful affects out of themselves, and into others."  Sad but enough stress and trauma will tip the scales into NPD.

[Privacy]

As you may know, from time to time we will post a guideline to remind members about something we see beginning to occur on the board.  This reminder is about protecting your privacy and that of others.  Obviously we are adults and you may choose to reveal personal information, but we strongly encourage you to avoid this wherever possible. 

Privacy

Protecting the confidentiality and privacy of members at OOTS is paramount to our members' sense of safety and community and we take this very seriously.  We cannot guarantee absolute privacy/ confidentiality because this is an online forum, but we will do as much as possible to protect members.  This includes encouraging you to protect your own privacy and that of other members.

Protecting your privacy - It is strongly recommended that you  do not use your real name and carefully consider posting any information, a user name, email address, avatar or photo which would allow others to recognize you and/or your family/friends.  Anyone may join this site including those who have perpetrated or been involved in your abuse.

Protecting the privacy of others - Members are also expected to respect the privacy of others and not to try to solicit personal information via posts on the board or PMs.  If the Moderation Team receives a complaint and/or sees a pattern of doing so the member will be warned and possibly banned.

I'll see if I can add a few of these into our little group - easier than typing in the words each time.

I haven't heard of this Laynelover, do you have some links?

When I dig into the trauma it takes three days or so of feeling hungover or flu-like to recover - lots of rest and fluids and compassion (no letting the ICr rant about how weak I am), work for me.

I had a bit of a light go on when I was doing some IC work and realized why this seems to be the case.  I feel trauma, fear with a child's intensity (which is why it scares me frankly - who want to go through that again?).  For example, the abandonment I felt as a child would have been simply terrifying. So as I work through it at least initially there is no rational aspect to it, there is only a deep and primitive fear with all kinds of lovely chemicals linked to those feelings that bath my system.  I am literally hungover and need to give my body time to recoup.

So good for you for taking a break arpy

How kind of you to offer KayFly I appreciate it and will certainly keep it in mind.  I haven't actually been diagnosed yet, I see my GP for lab results in two weeks and will go from there.  I do see a change in nutrition on the horizon for me regardless though.  As I lift out of the emotional side of CPTSD I am realizing just how much of a toll it has taken on my physical self and that I must get onto this side of things as well and I may well be back to take you up on your offer.

Have you found that it has made a difference in your health?

This is a continuation from the thread "Does anyone feel like an impostor sometimes?"

Dutch is way ahead of me and has let me know the thread has reached the five page limit (tks Dutch!).

IAW our guidelines I will lock this one (otherwise they get way too long to read through).  Dutch has started a new one (Part 2_ so if you would just shift to that one, that would be great 

A lot of the symptoms - headaches, sore, knotted muscles, nausea & diarrhea, rashes, tender/painful spots on the body are associated with fibromyalgia or Lupus.  Fatigue is a factor though, as is mental fog and sensitivity to light, noise and temperature changes  so don't know if that applies.  All symptoms flare more when under stress.  Just google neuro immune disorder - there's lots of info avail.