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Has anyone seen this movie? It's a biopic about the von Erich family. I didn't follow nor do I have any interest in wrestling, but I thought it sounded interesting so I watched it.

Oh my goodness. Just wow. This movie struck me so deeply. The family dynamic or should I say the narcissistic system. I did a deep dive into some documentary type stuff, and they actually made the movie more palatable.

I don't want to ruin the movie for anyone, but I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on it.

When finding the current day or more recent interview with Kevin, a very sweet seeming man, it just strikes me how he views his dad and his family. Very interesting.

I'm definitely going to check out that book, too. I often feel like the physical abuse aspect gets brushed aside in all of the information evolving out there, with lots to talk about emotional abuse is just as bad as physical abuse. It is absolutely. But it's not two separate things for me. And, the physical abuse came along with the verbal and emotional abuse as well. I would often get physically abused for things I didn't do or mind-boggling accusations. I would be getting verbally attacked while getting physically attacked. Now did this leave big bruises visible so that a police officer could observe that I was physically abused? Not usually. Are usually had red welts that went away within a few hours. This is never mentioned , physical abuse is usually described as having injuries or bruises or broken bones or cigarette burns. It's like saying I was never raped so I really molested. I never had a broken bone so was I really physically abused? Yes, absolutely it's just not something that I've seen much mention of so I'd like to read that book and see what it says.

Also also when I'm hashing the stuff out and watching videos reading books and learning. It is mostly emotional abuse and whether or not to forgive or try again or go no contact with the entire family because of all the gaslighting, etc. But then a lot of these videos and information say "they are not talking about if you were physically abused. " as to say, if you were physically abused, then definitely you should be no contact. No question about it and never speaking to any of these people again. It's all very confusing.

Sorry for the long rambles. It's really interesting. What you share about your grandparents viewpoint. Mine had some similar experiences, although we're not European, but I was often told I had no idea about the real world, and I didn't know what I was talking about and things like that. They definitely had depression era thinking, Were somewhat of hoarders and did not feel like they deserved anything in life. They both had an eighth grade education, although my grandfather was very intelligent and read medical books, had a wealth of knowledge from his ancestors about natural healing, Chinese and native American medicine, and was a natural musician. I didn't hate my grandparents. I just don't know why in so many years my mom could not have figured out how to do anything but be abusive. She always dropped seeds everywhere we went like I was ignorant or had some sort of issue or problem or birth defect. She painted a narrative about me so no one would believe me which seems worse to me than what her parents were. It seems psychopathic. Anyway sorry I'm starting to ramble.

It's so bizarre. And here I was twisting myself into a pretzel all these years trying to talk to them, figure out what to say, the right way to respond, everything. Then when you stop trying to engage, they think you're a horrible person or have ghosted them or just act like nothing happened and keep right on going. I realized a couple of longtime friends are like this, and I just can't even have the energy.

Hi, Dolly,

Thank you for taking the time to share part of your story, I really do appreciate it and it helps to hear it too, because we do share some of the same experiences. It's always so bizarre to me how they all do and say the same things. The betrayal traumas are never ending.

That really sucks that your GM would invite your mom to your graduation like that. I can really relate to the narcissistic relatives having zero boundaries and also not thinking of us as adults with our own rights and decisions. Having respect for another human being is completely out of their understanding.

I've wondered too, why my relatives did not step in on both sides. My favorite aunt who witnessed a few of the very worst of my mother's episodes because my mother had to "prove her control" to her sister apparently. There were some horrible episodes in private and in front of my dad, but the worst were actually in front of this aunt who was actually my favorite aunt until she passed away. Why didn't she help? Because she agreed!  Then there was the other side of the family who are just simply oblivious. They didn't protect me, still treat me like a child, and are just simply basic and surface level type of people. I have learned you do not mess with the fantasy "family is everything" narrative going on.

My grandparents were also poor with depression era type thinking. It's interesting what you said about challenging their authority and sense of their hardships as feeling dangerous. There was just no questioning them, including my grandfathers inappropriate behavior towards me. I was not allowed to say no because you do not say no to your elders. And when I did speak up, it took a lot of bravery, and my grandmother got right in my face and said if I ever said anything like that again, she would disown me. My parents did not ask me any further questions or protect me or cease to take me there, so I felt very crazy and undeserving of protection. After all, I had disrespected my elders who went through so much . Then, in the years to come, if anything came up about my go my dad would often say " you just don't understand him like I did." Yes that is the level of protection and gaslighting. Honestly, how I'm still in contact I have no idea. It's always been like this just insane amount of denial.

The other thing you said is yes if I just tried to be my own person, I was seen as rebelling and they doubled down on the control. Especially my narcissistic mother. We are talking about things like wanting to wear cut off shorts. Oh the horror. wanting to skateboard. what will people think? Wanting to learn how to play multiple instruments. How dare I disrupt the noise level in the home. One of my problems is I never rebelled at all or spoke up out of sheer terror. And now I am an older grown woman still feeling like I never got to do the things I wanted. I wasn't rebelling. I was prevented from being myself. There's a big difference. I'm sure you can relate.

Then when I was 25 and went back to school to live my dream, finally, my mother shows up at my doorstep and throws a tantrum and tells me "rebelling at (my) age is extremely unattractive". Every time she use the word rebel I was just bamboozled like what? How am I rebelling? I'm going back to college a second time. I so wish I knew then what I know now.

Anyway, yes, and here we are after years of learning and healing and making progress, my dad is still doing what he always did. I got up the nerve to talk to him in detail over several conversations a few years back, and nothing has changed. Obvious I expect something from a rock. I think to my parents I'm just a thing that was supposed to pop out and respect their every whim and have zero thoughts or needs.

I have not read Jays book but I like his videos. He touches on some experiences of the scapegoat that I have had, and how to heal them, that I have not heard from most others. I resonate with what his clients describe.

Anyhoo, sorry so long. I really appreciate you and all here.

Thanks Armee. I do want to say something. It feels so bamboozling. It took me well into NC with my mom to realize he was also suspect. It's confusing because he is a gentle man, one who every thinks is so wonderful, great musician and artist, funny and attractive. So many of my friends over the years, when they meet him, tell me I am soooo lucky to have a dad like that, and I thought so too. I thought he was the good parent.

I went through a lot of grief over this a couple of years ago and came out the other end pretty detached. But it still gets me sometimes, very deeply. He was there and didn't protect. He was fun and talented but didn't spend time with me, teach me anything or include me. I love music and art, too. Why didn't my musician artist dad teach me or validate me? Not a single picture on the fridge my whole childhood. His pristine paintings covered the walls.

I'm trying to have compassion for the last parent I speak to, but when I remember certain things, and when he does this type of thing (by far not the first of this nature), it wrecks me, honestly.

Yeah, the more I think about it and what to write, the more useless it seems. Obviously he doesn't get it. I am feeling more angry about it now. It begs the question how did I even survive childhood? And how did I empathize with these people for 46 years not even realizing it wasn't my fault? I know, but wow. Just insane.

Gosh, Cascade, I'm so sorry you're going through so much right now. I wonder what his intentions were with that.. seems insensitive..?. It would be so nice to think your brother could be supportive and understanding and that y'all could commiserate over shared experience. I think it's smart to observe that he is manipulative. That's a big red flag to me. If you do disclose anything to him, proceed with caution, please. Listen to your body.

I wonder if you dipped a toe in and asked him what his experience was like, what he would say. Sending support to you as you navigate your relationship with your brother.

All of your support and feedback has been invaluable to me this MD. It seems like last year I got through it the most easily in years but this year was harder.

Cascade, I really appreciate the validation. It's always a shocker at first when my dad does this stuff. You helped me come back down to earth. I have an easier time of intellectualizing these things but the nervous system is still sensitive for sure. I did observe though that it settled down much quicker than in the past, and wasn't triggered as bad as before. Yay me! lol

Have you learned any coping mechanisms to help you prepare for the triggers that might rear up around the wedding?

I imagine grey rock will be in full effect. I'll be around all of the people who I went NC from, who think I'm bad for this, and who covertly take their side. There will be friends there too, so I imagine spending any chatty time with them. I imagine I will be cordial to the abusers but distant, stay as short of time as possible and skedaddle. Sad way to anticipate your sisters wedding.

Im sarcastic too, Armee. lol. Oddly, I learned a long time ago that sarcasm does not compute with my parents. I thought of something like that, too.

"Dad we talked about my relationship with mom and how harmful it was, remember? Mother's Day is pretty difficult for me and causes a lot of grief and it really hurts that you would ignore that. I wish I had a mom that I could spend the day celebrating with, but I don't. It would help if you would acknowledge the difficult truth here."

I'm sorry he sent that. He is either guilt tripping you or really wants to pretend everything is fine.

That is such eloquent words that would make perfect sense to send. I think I will. I will change it up just a bit so I'm not using your exact words but it is perfect. I know he will gloss over it and say something religious and dismissive in response but that is his problem. I think he is BOTH guilt tripping and pretending everything is fine, his two favorite past times. Otherwise he might have to look at his own situation. Oh the horror. The other thing with him is he wants me to think of abusive wife #2 fondly and as a "mom." Cringe to the max.

Thank you for the empathy, Dolly! I am most definitely the scapegoat and do gear a lot of healing around that vantage point. Jay Reid and Rebecca mandeville are two I find helpful.

I was reading another post recently about what are thee benefits of growing up as a scapegoat in the family, and someone commented how they were able to leave and how much better they're doing now (not that you're a scapegoat). I just felt like for me, it can be so hard to see that yes, I actually am doing better now than I was when I was with my family, and as much as child consciousness me yearns for that connection and protection, adult consciousness me can see that they would've never given it to me no matter what I said.

Well said. I've been NC for 9 years now (from NM) and VLC from dad for many years, and still struggle every day. I envy those who say after a couple of years they are thriving and happier than ever. I thought that would be me, honestly.

Some days are better but it is always on my mind. Most of the time just trying to be gentle with myself and remind myself that I am strong, that as a child and young adult I was especially strong and didn't even know it, and that going back would lead to more of the same. I get deeply sad, often. I've tried pursuing dreams, hobbies, fitness, being more authentic..that has led me to basically cut ties with many friends I once had due to now seeing the toxic draining dynamic. But that's another story.

I know I just have to get through this phase, until the next one. It seems it will never end. This is just how "this life" is.

I love and appreciate you all here.
Phoebes

My very enabling dad who I have had several long conversations with about why I am no contact with my NM... first of all, never texts me or calls yet when I text or call he says things like "do you even remember what I sound like?" And I miss you and want to talk to you more often! But yet he never calls or text me or tries to have an actual relationship.

So today, not that big of a surprise after a long period of silence, I get a text saying he hopes I am having a great Mother's Day with my mom. It's so ridiculous and out there and on the nose that on one hand, I see it for what it is. On the other hand, I didn't know he was still in denial about that. at least if he doesn't talk about it he still knows what the deal is right? I told him at great length and fine detail. Or he's not in denial, just trying to paint me a bad person for not being in contact with her.

I remember as I was talking to him about it before his face looking in shock and light deer in the headlights. I didn't realize that by telling him about my mom I would actually be pointing out to him all the things he missed. He needed to hear that anyway, so that was fine. Now he's majorly gaslighting me .

Should I respond to that at all? Probably not. Should I ask him Why do you say that? I don't really know where the conversation go if he didn't listen to me and acknowledge before. It hurts that he doesn't even think about how hard Mother's Day are for me or how this whole situation is for me. He is way more concerned about how his ex-wife feels. I've been going through a hard time with it lately, lots of SI worse than ever. And I'm just starting to do better.

He is going to be here during the period of my sister's wedding at the end of the month and expect to see me otherwise I would just ignore or maybe go NC with him right now too. Honestly, I hope I catch the flu right before the wedding. Or Covid yeah Covid.

Just what I was thinking too, Kizzie. Thank you for the validation. 

Thank you all so much for the support. I can't tell you how much you helped.

When I finally sent the text about one minute later, she replied, saying she had tried to call to let me know she was Ing for giving out my number and that it would not happen again. Then she asked if I forgive her and of course I do. But then she didn't address the other stuff and I wonder if she even read it based on how fast she answered. Either gaslighting or something strange I don't know but I think I feel better and now if she does it again, I can at least point out that this is what I was talking about in my text.

I did it. 

Well, I think I've tweaked and thought this thing to death. I can really deconstruct all  the ways c-ptsd affects this type of thing. I had weird dreams related to it all night and woke up thinking of my great grandpa of all people.

I guess I, going to Hail Mary and send this text. She has been calling, texting and instagramming every day since our gathering, but only with "had a great time" and "positive" quotes. Gaslighting much? I offer to talk to her about it later if she would like. I hope I'm not throwing myself to the dogs, but if I am,I understand that it will be her choice to force me to maintain a distance.

Yall have really helped me take a deep breath, and I could feel the tension relax. Thank you. Yes it's like I go around and around in my head and analyze the way I say everything and what exactly I say and is it exactly what I want to say and will it come across that message. And I get amped up and my head starts spinning and well. I usually feel like I've waited too long and the time has passed and then the person feels like I ghosted them. I don't want to do that. Oddly this is an important person to me so I want to handle it correctly, but I don't believe she is self-aware at all and I guess the fear is the usual fear. How the person who is unconscious of their misbehavior will react.  I can say who cares all I want but my nervous system does care apparently. Lol.

Ugh. And now I keep tweaking the text and still haven't sent it.