Out of the Storm

Hi again guys,

I work, go to school, intern, etc. I'm around people often, but never feel closer to them and though sometimes i feel lonely i never want to spend time with people. After months of hanging around someone and spending time together I have no greater desire to see them than I do any other stranger. How do I actually begin enjoying really connecting and wanting to reach out. I do reach out and pursue my "goals" because mentally i know i should but there's no real joy in it for me.

Has anyone else experienced or overcome this?

I live with this people-fear constantly--yet I too held mostly people-oriented positions. I can recall two periods when I felt comfortable enough to where I actually felt at ease with the situation--when I worked in hospice/end of life settings and when I was involved with pre-school kids in the program called Head Start.The common denominator for me, I think, was that in those roles I didn't feel judged, or maybe it's more the fear of being judged was erased by serving a greater need.

I fell into each of those experiences. I'd love to find another outlet like them, but the circumstances of how they came about were unique and aren't an option for me right now. Like you, I've reached a level where being alone is okay, too. I'm not actively looking, but I kinda wish for it all the same. Mine is a classic "freeze" reaction to cptsd, per Walker.

So that was my way, for a while. Not desperately seeking another outlet, but who knows? I'm not sure I consider it something to overcome, but if another opportunity arose where I could just be and share myself again, I might give it a shot. I'm still cautious with people, for good or ill, but at least I had the chance to feel safe at loving and being loved.

I hope you can find a balance in your life between alone and with people you can feel comfortable with.   

Hi annbelievesinwhales

I cant believe you feel the same way I do!!
I have began to think there may be something wrong with me- but i guess its cptsd related, ive never discounted that possibility.
Im sorry i dont have any answers, only similar experience.

I have lost joy in spending time with others too.
I do feel lonely, bored etc. in others company, but cant be with others, because it is triggering, but the thought of being with others sometimes makes me panic.
I do find it boring being with most people, and I think its because i can not share any aspect of myself.
People want to feel connected and that involves an equal relationship on both ends. People can not appreciate me if they dont know what there is to appreciate. There may be nothing...but i hope you know what i mean.
I am always listening to others ...its always about them. I dont like attention, but I just get bored listening all the time.

I am also a freaze type. Cautious and untrusting of others. I think currently and have for a long time, that people suck.
I know its not helpful me saying that.

I hope you can find a balance too.

THE SAME!

I reach out to people because I know it's good for my mental health but most of the world is like it's not there, like it could be there or not and I wouldn't care.

People wouldn't understand as I can seem bubbly, outgoing and friendly and have a well tailored persona to expose when socialising but the world is so blank and meaningless.

Perhaps because I carried lies and was taught to hide so well I am now having to rebuild what life is about but the first step is to find healthy so I try not to think about how disfunctional it is to feel only numbness against the world and the people in it.

One step at a time...

Boy I feel that way.
The only time I feel as though I am comfortable with people is when I'm at work. I'm a nurse and I like talking to my patients. I'm not aware of the pain or fear. I don't feel as though I have to open up. I'm happy focusing on the person.

I know I'm suppose to feel as though I want to be around others. The problem is I feel too needy. I feel afraid. If someone yells at me, I freeze. People think I'm an idiot. I can hear them talk about me. (no it's not paranoia). Nurses are mean to each other.

agreed

I have the same experience.

Ironically when I meet people I connect with I find I give them the space I would expect for myself and they think I am being distant.I can't live in the pockets of others. Friendships Soon dissolve.

Hi Ann -

Quote from: annbelievesinwhales on July 19, 2015, 03:02:56 PM
I work, go to school, intern, etc. I'm around people often, but never feel closer to them and though sometimes i feel lonely i never want to spend time with people. After months of hanging around someone and spending time together I have no greater desire to see them than I do any other stranger. How do I actually begin enjoying really connecting and wanting to reach out. I do reach out and pursue my "goals" because mentally i know i should but there's no real joy in it for me.

Has anyone else experienced or overcome this?

Lord yes lol!  After everything we have been through I don't think being emotionally distant from others is a surprising outcome.  The numbing, the unwillingness to allow ourselves to attach to anyone, to feel anything makes perfect sense.  If we don't allow ourselves to feel anything towards others we can't be hurt.  It's what we had to do to protect ourselves as children when those who were supposed to love us abused us instead.  And it worked, we survived.

FWIW, as I recover and get more and more of the pain out and processed, there is more room and energy for others, more of a desire to connect, and thankfully a lessening fear of being hurt because I am learning to protect myself in more appropriate ways. 

Hope some small part of this helps  :hug:

Ann b in whales
It never ceases to amaze me how much identification I get here....
Yes !!
I 'checked out ' for a couple of yrs re social life ( not completely but didn't really Persue making friends etc - wasn't bothered - preferred my own company
The past few mths ( since working with therapist ....I have found a shift - I want to be around people more though I still feel uncomfortable and find eye contact hard .. But the progression is I do now share about myself and feel more equal in how I relate ..
It feels a lot about emotional boundaries - before they were so poor I lost myself to others -
How do u enjoy connecting and reaching out - I can only give my own experience in that it has been about my self development as I've felt some more integration I have started opening up to life more -
Maybe it's not so much about enjoying it at first ? But practicing in timed ways and reflecting on what the thoughts were whilst doing it ...
We are social animals by default and I'm learning just how much people do trust and explore with each other - healing through relationship -
The more I focus on me and not necessarily them the better -
Fear is a big one for me and my thinking is distorted - I very much come with a black and white attitude to life and it seems about learning that middle ground
Maybe find a hobby that u enjoy and meet people with an activity between u - I joined a walking group and it sure takes some of the despondency and fear out of relating
Wishing u all the best

Triggerd 2
I work as a nurse also and relate to what u say 'I'm not aware of the pain or fear ' yes when I am with a patient because it is one sided and a service - 'i' am not in the equation so much ' . That gets me to think that the aim of healthy functioning in relating may be down to me not being so absorbed in me - more about the sharing and less focus and hypervigelence on 'me'
That said I'm not there yet :)
I am just learning how to practice more balanced sharing - how to work with my energetics and be in my own body with a sense of protection and how to be honest eg if I feel shy I am shy - not I feel shy and I pretend to be confident -
Learning how to be authentic and not self beat because I'm less than perfect is very important for me as a sufferer of cptsd
Yes I am just learning I'm a freeze type too - esp if someone is too dominant / talkative / lacks boundaries - I go like a rabbit in head lights ...
My default setting is to go quiet and give up - I'm learning to be more myself - if I don't feel comfortable sharing with someone ( which happens a fair bit , and I'm sure happens to others who don't have cptsd ) then I am learning to share for myself..
This week I am seeing that I give others too much power / attention /focus and what I'd be best to do is give that to me -
Always afraid of what others think / their opinions and general personality ... Relating feels like playing a game and learning the rules ...
I can see that the problems come from that lack of early attachment and retreat into self / not learning those social skills and becoming early on afraid of people -
But time is changing I can't live locked in that fear and hide now -
For me now it's about facing that fear and all the accompanying thoughts / attitudes and working with it - of course it requires support I can't do this stuff on my own

And just to finish yes ! Care staff can and are bloody awful - those environments are full of co dependants and all the behaviours that go with that - talking about others behind their backs / lack of assertiveness / all or nothing thinking / not taking care of self / lack of boundaries
It's toxic
The only thing I can do is look after me - I too have had a long history with codependence ( the silent killer ) and I had to work through a lot of guilt in order to start focusing on my self ( and still a work in progress ) but I know today that when I keep my energy in the right places I feel so much better - learning to be assertively kind is proving very beneficial - people really do have more respect for it

Kizzie, what you wrote makes a whole load of sense and is helpful.
I am glad you are feeling that there is more room for others now that you are letting some of that pain out.
How amazing.
I did turn off my feelings for my parents and mu sister.
I feel nothing but anger and indifference for my mum.
You helped me to realise that i did not let myself feel attached and maybe not just because i found my mother infuriating and annoying but because they had no love to give.
This works with others too.
How nice it would be to find true people as in friends, that accept you and where a healthy relationship can be had.

Glad it helped Indigo  :thumbup: I was just rereading Pete Walker's four trauma types and he has them grouped under a section "CPTSD as an Attachment Disorder"  which speaks volumes to why we have difficulties with relationships. 

QuotePolarization to a fight, flight, freeze or fawn response is not only the developing child's unconscious attempt to obviate danger, but also a strategy to purchase some illusion or modicum of attachment. All 4F types are commonly ambivalent about real intimacy because deep relating so easily triggers them into painful emotional flashbacks

Reference: http://pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm

Other than my H and S, most of my attachments have been illusory, lightweight  and as he suggests, because I was so easily triggered by any hint of rejection, anger or by someone who seemed in any way needy/demanding.  Those fears seem to be diminishing as I recover fortunately.

The other reason was not wanting anyone to see what I used to think of as the  'defective' part of me that has EFs and is not always rational and adult. Knowing now that I have a disorder or psychological injury rather than a defect of character, does make it easier and yet I  still hold back from a deeper level of intimacy. I am letting people closer than ever before, but I am just not certain about whether and how to achieve that deeper level without revealing what I have been through.  It is not easily discussed and not with just anyone. 

So far this forum is really the only place other than therapy and with my H that I am open and that's because it's anonymous.  I feel like I am connecting in one sense, but it's a bit of an illusion or a modicum in another because we don't know one another IRL.

I had 3 clients today.  I am more exhausted than I can explain. I have spent days cleaning and doing heavy yardwork for 12 hours or more, straight, without getting tired at all, but talking to human beings has drained me.  I thought that seeing people one at a time would be easier than crowds.  But they are both draining. 

I feel a general connection to humanity because I understand people and I understand the individuals that come my way.  But I don't want to spend time with them.  Especially if they seem the slightest bit critical or if I imagine they might be.  That just makes me think, why did I bother giving you my time if you don't even appreciate me; being around you was a monumental task for me and you kind of have to love it and need it otherwise why should I put the stress on myself. 

Honestly, at this point I don't care and if I don't connect to individuals I won't mind.  But I have to pay my bills so I guess it has to happen. and when it's good it's great but it takes a lot of ego stroking for me to believe someone likes me. I don't think I'm going to get over it. I'm not trying to be a downer but I believe that based on experience in a lot of therapy so my strategy is to figure out how to survive in spite of it. 

i really understand that, Kizzie.  this forum is at present the only contact i have with anyone except my kids. and certainly the only place where i can feel safe enough to share in any way, precisely becos of the anonymity, as you say.

being alone is all new territory for me becos i have always been very social (the upside of living in a xian community for 15 yrs before i left and got married, had family etc.)  i always considered i was quite good at relationships, and in a way i was.  but the  final 'betrayal' in the cult a couple of years back plus a sexual assault by someone in the church i went to next, and then an episode of sexual harassment at work and i suddenly just felt i was not safe anywhere. so i have self-isolated as completely as i can. 

i know it's not healthy in the long term but it's the best i can do in order to survive at the moment. the thought of re-engaging with people actually sets off very upsetting EFs if i am not very careful. happened this afternoon when i had a missed call on my phone from a lady (a nice one) who i used to know in the cult. i didn't ring her back, but it really scared me. and then i felt guilty becos she obviously meant well, then, well you know how it goes.  i can't bear being anywhere near anyone in or connected with the cult, and i don't have any relationships really that don't come under that heading.  the fear and the feeling of nowhere being safe for me is too much to tackle at the moment.  i am just hoping that if i keep working on what i can manage to tackle, the rest will somehow follow. 

Quote from: arpy1 on September 29, 2015, 10:01:01 PM
i really understand that, Kizzie.  this forum is at present the only contact i have with anyone except my kids. and certainly the only place where i can feel safe enough to share in any way, precisely becos of the anonymity, as you say.

i know it's not healthy in the long term but it's the best i can do in order to survive at the moment. the thought of re-engaging with people actually sets off very upsetting EFs if i am not very careful.  the fear and the feeling of nowhere being safe for me is too much to tackle at the moment.  i am just hoping that if i keep working on what i can manage to tackle, the rest will somehow follow. 

I think isolating may be healthy Arpy for those of us with CPTSD. I also isolated myself because I couldn't bear to be around anyone and it gave me the space I needed to stay inside my skin long enough to get to know myself better.  When I was around people I was always pulled out of myself, focused on them and meeting their needs.  I figured out that I was trained to be "other-referencing" by covert NPD M and B, alcoholic F rather than "self-referencing" through a thread here at OOTS. A light went off big time and I was so much more okay with not pushing myself to make deeper friendships IRL, but just get out there a little bit more at a time. And I am much more comfortable saying hello to neighbours, talking to my hair stylist, etc., things that would have just drained my energy a year ago. 

What feels important about being able to venture out now is being able to be open here. I see that the sky does not fall, there is compassion and support, and that I am not alone.  I couldn't find that IRL because like you and so many here, I would constantly be triggered, a facial expression even would ignite doubt, shame, in an instant.  Here I can say what I need to in my own time, I can practice being my authentic self.   And the sky does not fall - huzzah!

Just yesterday after writing the post above I had a friend of 20 years over and we had our first open discussion about our pasts.  I knew intuitively that she had faced trauma, but she was guarded and I was guarded and we never brought any of that up.  But we did yesterday because she is in recovery as am I and the time was just right I guess.  I didn't have an EF, but I did sleep for 12 hours last night lol. 

Anyway, my point is that I think you're right about "the rest will follow"  :hug:

thanks for that, Kizzie. it helps that someone else thinks it's ok for me to be doing this!

i guess i still feel a lot of guilt about being 'self-' rather than 'other-referencing' as you put it. had my daughter on the phone today and in the course of the conversation she tells me i ought to think about doing some volunteering or something, to get me out of the house.  i just couldn't say to her that the very idea of it is horrifying to me. so i just said 'oh yes, that might be a good idea' or something. 

it's hard when people just don't understand. it makes me feel so selfish and, as one elder in the cult called me once when i was struggling: self-obsessed. that was such a pejorative term; it was deeply embedded in us that any sort of introspection or work on one's self is wrong/sinful/sky-definitely-gonna-fall ... it is a constant struggle to not believe it any more; to give myself permission to concentrate on my own healing.

re your friend and the 12 hours sleep (how lovely!), that doesn't surprise me at all.  it is very energy demanding to share on a deep level like that even when it's being beneficial.  and good for you not to get an EF out of it, you should be proud, seriously, shows you're healing  :yes:  :hug:

 I was taught that 1. thinking too much was a waste of time and therefore wrong because you should be doing something like chores or praying and 2. it's arrogant to think you might know yourself. 

All of the social messaging in society is geared to being "normal". Normal is defined as running around like crazy, endlessly buying stuff (all-marketing-all-the-time), cheering your commercialized sports team, and participating in the marketplace at all costs. Values are no longer life traits, they're the latest low price on what you just have to have.

The only thinking desired is whatever it takes to guarantee one's role as a consumer. The word citizen isn't even heard much anymore, it's totally consumer oriented..."and here is the news; consumers today were said to...".

As tired said: "it's arrogant to think you might know yourself." Social consensus feeds on insecurity and it begins with the message to be "normal" and that means be social at all costs.

Because I live in the woods, people assume I must be anti-social...yeah, right; and next weekend I'm running a dinner theatre programme involving dozens of people. It's perfectly fine to be as social, or not, as you choose to be--in many of our situations, we need to factor in our cptsd to find our tolerable comfort niche (I'll be drained from social anxiety after the event but the artistic need to do it overrides at this point).

Unless you know yourself, who determines your needs--you or the media-saturated culture with its seal of approval? 

Well put, woodsgnome.  :thumbup:

I have this postal card hanging on my (toilet)wall that says:

"Thinking makes us tired.
So we'd rather (be) judge(mental)*."    *)It's not easy to find the 'right' translation.

I see your post reflected in that.
:hug:

Edited to add:
I notice I get a bit tense that the message might not come across, since these post-cards all have an ironic (?) twist build in them.

So, as safety catch for myself, I'll post a few more by this team of writers:
"My to-do list tends to fade in the sun."
and
"Today I biked really, really fast
past the gym."
and
"Puberty: when your parents start to act out really obnoxious behavior."

Too funny Dutch!

Woodsgnome - I hadn't really thought about how much marketing contributes to being other referenced and in such a superficial way, but when I read your post a light when on.  I've become increasingly irritated by advertising to the point where I only watch the news and shows on PVR so I can avoid the commercials.  I had thought it was just a function of aging, but perhaps it is also because as we progress in recovery and we find so much of substance within ourselves (as Pete Walker suggests, the "silver lining" of CPTSD), it makes superficiality harder to bear.  Anyway, really interesting thought to ponder. 

Arpy, WG's posts made me see my post could use a little clarification. For the longest while I thought I was just introverted, but when I was diagnosed with CPTSD, I was also diagnosed with Social Anxiety Disorder. So there's a part of me that doesn't want to be around people all that much by choice (I am actually introverted), but there is another part that wants to be more connected with some people, but is really afraid to and that's due to social anxiety (not a choice per se because it's driven by fear and anxiety).

It's the latter part that's more okay with people these days, whereas the introverted side will never want a big circle of friends or to be overly social.  So when I say I agree that the rest will follow, it's probably more accurate to say as the SA diminishes, I am becoming more comfortable with people, but will never be the life of the party or want that level of socializing. 

Now there's a head spinner for you lol :stars:

Wow! I posted a while ago and am so happy to see that pple actually can relate to this! We aren't alone even though it feels that way. Stupid trauma

I agree Annebelievesinwales
Stupid trauma.
Not stupid that we feel this way but frustrating. Makes me angry.

Trigger Warning....


I sometimes wish that i could inflict this stuff on the people who actually did it to us.
I guess they had their round of it though which is why they did it to us.

Indigo wrote:

"I guess they had their round of it though which is why they did it to us."

Abusers may indeed have had many reasons that can explain 'why' they were abusive, but I don't feel an obligation to understand their still senseless actions. I've tried, and 1)it drives me nuts and 2)it's like giving them power over my mind...still.

As to thoughts of anger and revenge, totally okay and far more understandable than their abuse ever was. Thoughts come and go, actions leave scars.

If a drunk driver hits me and I'm in the hospital for weeks, or worse, am I going to think: "Nah, the guy/gal probably had a rough day, and needed a drink. No sweat."?

I don't think so. Nor will the court.

Quote from: Indigo on October 06, 2015, 11:03:59 AM
Trigger Warning....


I sometimes wish that i could inflict this stuff on the people who actually did it to us.

I think this regularly.
For me, I have found a healthier way to deal with it. I get angry about the fact they did this to me.
And I know I will not do what they have done. Nor have I done it. And certainly not so receptively as they did, even when I resisted or complained about it.
I did my stupid and harmful things in life. Of course. But I apologized, either in person or in private, and made sure I didn't do it again.

It's not that they didn't have a clue.

Boatsetsailrose-----
Boy - you seem to write my thoughts-scares me to no end.
When I'm with a patient, My focus is on that person. I easily stand up for and protect that person against anyone. I don't care if they yell, scream, curse-- whatever. I protect them. The only time I have 'fought' with a staff member was because of the care the staff person wanted to give. I can look back and say - OMG- who was she and where did she come from.  :pissed:  After, I froze and shut down.

Years ago I received a written warning because a doctor went off yelling at me while accusing me of giving her information late. I didn't even do it. I wasn't in the area at the time. My supervisor wrote me up for it knowing the doctor's accusation was unfounded. I couldn't do anything except cry and plead for him to know I would never do that.  -- Yes, the supervisor is/was/always will be toxic. I no longer work there.

There are some incredibly good nurses. There are nurses who are mean, hateful, self centered, back biting and would do anything to sabotage another nurse (except their BFF).

I can fight for others. I can't/don't stand up for myself.
I am always shy except when I'm at work in my "nurse role". I can talk to staff. I am really able to speak with patient's and their family members.
Yes I am co-dependent.   

I work to be authentic. It is harder right now because I had shoulder surgery a month ago but have been out of work since the end of July. I know it will be better when I can go to work.

I always thought I was really wrong for not being good around people so it's a massive comfort to read that others find it difficult too (not that I want you all to struggle, but you know what I mean!)

I worked with a massive extrovert until recently who manages to be friends with everyone and actually wantsto be friends with everyone. Even people she seemingly doesn't have anything in common with she will invite to socialise. I really envy her because I imagine her life is easier as a result. I didn't realise until I left that workplace though how insecure she probably actually is. Every conversation did somehow gravitate towards her ultimately, she constantly played the joker and she absolutely relished it. If anything did go wrong in her life or someone said the wrong thing she would have a massive downer and go really quiet, so although she seemed infallible there was far more to it. I think as an extrovert she reaches out to people all the time to boost her emotional energy. As an introvert I tend to push people away because I find the social stimulus overwhelming. Since leaving that job I have gone from seeing her every day to exchanging a text message now and then. I do think she is bothering with me less because I'm not the happy, bubbly person who wants to talk all the time. I just can't pretend to be like that when the majority of the time I feel emotionally terrible, it's exhausting. Plus I can't open up to people who won't understand, too much chance of getting the, "but he's your father, he must love you deep down!" line.

I relate to what Kizzie has said about the conflict between not wanting to be around people but also wanting to connect with them. When I feel better emotionally I would like to work on my social skills again but I want to be liked for who I am and to be friendly with like-minded people rather than suppressing my true character just to fit in.

Yeah BluesCruse!!
I want to be liked for who I am and to be friendly with like-minded people rather than suppressing my true character just to fit in.
Me too!
I have wanted this for a while now upon realising that I dont want connection with others unless it is possible to have nice connection with authentic individuals who accept you.

Same old—when it feels good enough to feel bad.

Interesting how close the reachout can seem, but how distant too. I'm speaking of an old trait of mine which was in full force recently.

It was my big annual "social" occasion—a dinner-theatre I started managing several years back. It's a one-night stand and involves dozens of people ranging from actors to wait people to chefs to you name it. My expertise lies in the acting side but touches all bases.

I love it—and hate it. The love is reacquainting myself with my artistic/creative side via the actors/musicians I recruit (all from afar, alas—the local area is pretty scant talent-wise). The hate is based in the fear of people; the judgements, critiques, all those familiar cptsd traits.

People loved the evening, as usual. But as everyone departed, it was same old too. Lots of surface friends, some old/some prospective, but I know it'll be too much for me to expect anything more. As in a friendship that goes beyond those "hi, great time" surfaces. So after a lovely morning-after breakfast with the performers, I wearily packed up and headed back to lonely.

Why don't I follow up? Distance is a factor, for sure. But the backoff seems more related to my same/old feelings of unworthiness. I'm good at drawing them, but fail to leap past the required niceties of the short term. I sabotage myself with a rigourous inner critic that devalues the esteem others say they have for me. I leave it at that and have 1,001 reasons to not consider reaching out. Want to/don't.

Same old. 'Spose it's like returning to prison after work-release. :sadno:

 :sadno:   it is hard, wsg. much support :hug: :hug:

 :hug: woodsgnome