I posted this elsewhere in a thread Papa Coco started about recovery but thought it might be an idea to copy it here as well because it's such a 'good' example of what covert Ns will do, Overt Ns are easier to recognize but IMO we have to write about the covert ones as they take a lot longer to figure out, to see them for what they are and what they are doing.
Being able to see the behaviours of covert Ns for what it is and learning to validate our gut feelings that something is not right. hopefully will shave years off trying to decide if we are being abused or not. My mantra is trust your gut but also have a look at the symptoms of CPTSD (https://www.outofthestorm.website/symptoms). If you have them be they mild or severe it's a pretty safe bet you were abused no matter how covert the behaviour of the N in your life.
My NB got married again this past weekend and my 94 yr old NM attended. Apparently in the middle of things she had some sort of heart issue, insisted she was fine (so that everyone would fuss and insist she go to the hospital - we've seen this particular move from the N playbook before). And apparently it took 5 people (likely 5 strong musclemen types) to hold my B back from going to the hospital with her (which would be delightful for her of course). Off she went in the ambulance, got a checkover and some medication, and was back in time for the last dance.
So of course she would have a medical issue at his wedding, and of course she would email me about it with pictures attached of her sitting on the wharf where she lives with my aunt and uncle having a lovely lunch and a drink not two days later.
On my wedding day she asked me to pick up her dress from the cleaners and I did can you imagine?! I have no recollection of this but my H insists it happened.
This is what Ns do, this is what she has always done and this is why I stay as far away as I can. It's both funny and heartbreaking at the same time.
Kizzie,
I can't help but chuckle at your story. Making someone else's wedding all about herself. So typical. I find that now that I'm not as easily tricked into engaging with NPDs, I now find them funny to watch. They're horrifically painful to be attached to, but once the attachment is gone, they're just clowns. I call them Cartoon Characters. I believe they are emotionally stunted 3-year-olds who use lies, drama, pouting and temper tantrums to get what they want all day long. Now that they've lost their power over me, they just look like idiots. Fools. Comedic characters on sitcoms.
My standing rule, whenever I am wondering if someone is a Covert NPD, is: "If you suspect they're NPD. You're right." Period.
I also say, "If she's wearing a black dress and holding an apple out for me to bite, she may not be a witch, but I'll go ahead and decline the apple anyway. Better safe than sorry."
OMG, do I have stories Papa. They didn't make me laugh for the longest time, but suddenly they seemed so ridiculous, like this one, you can't help but see the humour.
I told the psychiatrist who assessed me the other day for the Ketamine Therapy that I was having difficulty deciding whether to go to my M's funeral when she dies (she's 94), because I couldn't bear the thought of everyone saying what a lovely woman she was. I went to my F's because someone over at Out of the FOG said "Just keep moving" plus my F was a bit of a grouchy old fellow so I knew I wouldn't have to listen to what a great guy he was. My NM though, different story altogether.
I'm estranged from most of that side of the family (maternal) so don't hear what they say about me anymore. My M will be buried with my Dad in the Canadian military's cemetery in Ottawa so I can make a trip there on my own anytime as I see it. My F's side of the family might wonder if I'm not at the funeral/memorial service but they've had some interesting family issues themselves so probably wouldn't blink an eye now that I think about it. And again, I don't see them as they're in Ontario.
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Kizzie,
I attended my mom's funeral in 2009. My Narcissister made an absolute clown out of herself, anytime any good person tried to say something about Mom, she'd do what I call "the full-body-eye-roll." This was a 60-year-old woman who always tried to prove she was better than everyone else. When a good person would try to speak about Mom, she'd give a very, very, very loud sigh, then bend her knees, and rollllll her whole body along with her eyes, giving another disgusting sigh. Most cousins tried to ignore her. I was terrified because at that point I was still completely under her evil spell, and that was the aggressive bullying she'd done to me since the day I was born. (She was 11 when I was born, so she had full perceived-elder-authority over me my entire life). But I've eventually come to make that full-body-eye-roll into a laughing stalk. The evil sister character in my novels, who is modeled after her, gives that eye-roll and cracks up my readers. Knowing there are people around the world laughing at my sister's meanness just makes me feel even better.
I estranged from the entire family a year later, in 2010.
When Dad died, in 2011, it was an absolute NON-EVENT! I did NOT attend any funerals. I did NOT post anything on FB. One of my aunts sent me a sympathy card, but I threw it away. What did the family think of me not showing up? WHO CARES????? Full No Contact is FULL No Contact, and I don't care what ANY of my siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, or old family friends think of me. I do NOT care. If I am lucky, I'll never, ever see any of them ever again. It's been long enough now that half of them could be dead already. And I...don't...care!
It feels wonderful to be estranged at that 100% level. They had 50 years to insult and criticize me. I get at least a few later years only allowing good people into my life now. It's MY turn to have fun at my own expense.
I love the term Narcissister Papa, wish it worked for brothers. Narcibro? :snort:
You S sounds very dramatic, obviously NOT a covert N. I would probably do that in my head, in fact maybe even scream silently if I had to listen to people tell me how wonderful and sweet my NM was.
In any event I don't plan to waste any time restoring any family relationships, but I do want to make connections with more people so we'll see how the Ketamine helps me feel about that. Maybe like you the treatment will cement my right to feel as I do about the abusers/codependents in my family and help give me the whatever (trust, desire, kick in the rear end) to seek out friendships with healthier people.
QuoteI get at least a few later years only allowing good people into my life now.
:yeahthat:
Quote from: Papa Coco on September 18, 2022, 10:25:11 PM
It feels wonderful to be estranged at that 100% level. They had 50 years to insult and criticize me. I get at least a few later years only allowing good people into my life now. It's MY turn to have fun at my own expense.
50 years of insulting and criticising? :thumbdown: Sorry to hear about that.
I'm still not as far along in healing as you but happy for you you've got to that stage! :cheer: for you. Something for me to look forward to.
I relate to your story and it's taken me years to unpack that behaviour in my gm. It was always for my good, and protection because she loved me. Well, we have to unpack what "love" is.
If I said something to a friend about how she went behind my back and invited my mother to my graduation when I had worked so hard to get through school and my mother did nothing to help, and I wanted her and my gf there because I thought they "supported" me, I was told oh she means well; it's because she loves you, which only made me feel more crazy and angry. Somehow speaking out made you the scapegoat. Maybe that's why I have issues (well am finally learning) how to stand up for myself.
QuoteIf I said something to a friend about how she went behind my back and invited my mother to my graduation when I had worked so hard to get through school and my mother did nothing to help, and I wanted her and my gf there because I thought they "supported" me, I was told oh she means well; it's because she loves you, which only made me feel more crazy and angry. Somehow speaking out made you the scapegoat. Maybe that's why I have issues (well am finally learning) how to stand up for myself.
" I was told oh she means well; it's because she loves you,
which only made me feel more crazy and angry. " And isn't that it in a nutshell for us!? When we spoke up about the abuse/neglect we actually suffered we were made to feel like
we were bad somehow, at least that's how it was for me so you learn to say nothing. Personally I think it's worse in a way than being physically or sexually abused because with those forms of relational trauma the abuse is clear. That's not the case with covert N abuse and it does make survivors crazy and angry, of course it does.
Quote from: Kizzie on September 20, 2022, 12:07:54 PM
And isn't that it in a nutshell for us!? When we spoke up about the abuse/neglect we actually suffered we were made to feel like we were bad somehow, at least that's how it was for me so you learn to say nothing.
Yes and then the self-doubt creeps because we are denied our reality, so we begin to think we are bad etc. Also, as kids we want to be the bad one because we don't want to hurt our parents/can't fathom that they could hurt us in that way. So, when they play victim it tugs at us and on it goes. And other people can't believe that a nice old woman would do those things, or they're from a different generation etc etc. So, it's denying the experience again.
I had something come up this week with regards to my gm. I found this, which might not be for everyone but something that stuck out and made sense to me is that as children we unknowingly/subconsciously make these agreements to keep the peace (or probably for our own survival) at the time. So, while it can feel like they're (narcs) helping us, we might just be acting out old agreement for survival. I'm wondering if that's why it was so hard for me to let go of the fact that I wasn't responsible for her, and that that wasn't "love," which is possibly still affecting me on some level. However someone else from the outside might have seen it.
https://shamanicspiritmedicine.com/shamanic-blog/2018/12/8/healing-from-narcissistic-abuse-a-shamanic-approach?format=amp
ps I hope the Ketamine therapy goes well today :cheer: maybe this link will help you on your journey there :)
Dolly, thank you ! This is an excellent article, so relevant to my intention for today I have printed it out and am taking it with me. I have 1/2 hour before the Ketamine where I reflect on my intention for the session and this captures the whole N abuse issue I want to guide me.
Before the Ketamine I do an EMDR therapy session and this quote from the article basically captures the long standing issue I have chosen to focus on for that (i.e., I don't matter):
After the trauma of experiencing the basic norms of civil discourse and respect for your inherent psychic and emotional sovereignty being thrown to the wayside; it is easy to start to believe that your needs don't matter; and by extension that you don't matter.
Keeping the peace, keeping silent is all about survival and being responsible for the N's in our lives is absolutely engrained in us because of that. As children, on a very primal level we knew that without them we would not make it in the world.
All very well said.
Kizzie, to your comment: Keeping the peace, keeping silent is all about survival and being responsible for the N's in our lives is absolutely engrained in us because of that. As children, on a very primal level we knew that without them we would not make it in the world.
That was SO well said!
I have come to understand that my secrets, and my private way of dealing with the fear of my own family, kept me alive. Keeping my secrets kept me alive. That's absolutely how I felt as a child AND as a middle-aged man. Today, at 62, I'm exploring what my life might have been like had I not believed that my secrets were keeping me alive. What if I'd have understood how sick THEY were? What if I could have lived my life without the horrific stress of being terrified that I was just one slipped sentence away from being killed and thrown into the weeds like garbage?
The biggest problem I see with having lived most of my life believing that my secrets were that important, is that guarding myself 24 x 7 became my identity. Today, I have no secrets. I abhor secrets. To me, keeping secrets for my own survival feels like I'm trapped in a cage with a sleeping monster. Any time anyone starts to get too close to my secrets, I feel like they are threatening to wake up the monster, which will kill and eat me. I lived on eggshells for 50+ years, trying not to let anyone wake up that monster. Now, with no secrets (in fact, if anything, I tell people WAY too much about myself), I don't feel that fear anymore, BUT I also am having a long-running identity crisis.
Without my life-saving secrets...who am I?
I'm glad you got something from that article and hope it was helpful in your session today.
It's something that I've been interested in since I did IFS and saw a part that didn't "belong" to me. I don't know how to describe it, it just didn't feel like me. Through the IFS course I did with Robert Falconer (?), I came across a book by Ann M Drake that talked about legacy burdens and how we take on the things from our family etc. She spoke about how on some level there is an energy transference and we take on energies that don't belong to us, and in the case of narc parents, they take our energy that doesn't belong to them. This also happens in things like CSA where victims feel like they have the perpetrator inside them.
I know it's kind of out there, but on another level I can also see how there are subconscious "agreements" that we make which we might not be aware of. I don't know if this is the case in more aggressive forms of abuse though; I can't imagine it would be unless for survival. I feel like it makes sense why maybe sometimes we can go over things but we are not getting better. It's not just our minds that think us well.
edit: I think it makes a lot of sense that you feel like you don't matter as well. How can you feel like you matter when there is someone in your life who will try to upstage you at those times when it's supposed to be about you? Anyone's wedding is their day. It's what we hear over and over - it's her day, the bride's big day. I remember in my 20s I moved to a new country and I could finally grow orchids. I had tried before at home, but the temperature/light was never right and they always died. I would go into the flower market on Granville Island and always fall in love with all of the different varieties and wish I had them. I was skyping with my gm and excitedly showing her my orchids and how they were flowering (that I had changed the soil etc). When I went home for a visit, I saw that she had all these orchids and pots now, which she never had before. At the time, I was really put off but I couldn't pinpoint the feeling. It wasn't like, oh I loved the flowers you were growing and I wanted to try and it was something we could talk about and share. It was just like anything you can do, I can do. But it's taking the specialness away from you and even though it's such a small, not even talked about act, it's like it really "puts you in your place." It takes something out of you.
There's a lot on this thread that I resonate with. I can't write it down yet. In fact I can't even sort it out in my own head and feelings. Just want to say thanks.
QuoteWhen I went home for a visit, I saw that she had all these orchids and pots now, which she never had before. At the time, I was really put off but I couldn't pinpoint the feeling. It wasn't like, oh I loved the flowers you were growing and I wanted to try and it was something we could talk about and share. It was just like anything you can do, I can do. But it's taking the specialness away from you and even though it's such a small, not even talked about act, it's like it really "puts you in your place." It takes something out of you.
Before I post I want to say I'm in the same place as you BB, so much I want to talk about but not enough energy today to do so.
I did want to comment on what you said Dolly because it is one thing N's do, they steal what is yours and make it their own. I can think of so many examples. I made pine cone wrath's for Christmas many years ago and the next year my M made them for everyone on her side of the family. She went to a store with my son last year that he really likes and suddenly it became her store. Anything you like she will take, friends included. She would cozy up to my friends and become their friend and of course they would love her and say things like what a great Mom you have.
N's do not share, they take things, ideas. place, people, etc., away from you and make it theirs. It takes something from you literally and emotionally it takes something out out of you, it wounds you yet again. You can't have any special just for you or that you can share even. It has to be theirs.
I'm so sorry about your orchids Dolly :hug:
I used to bake pecan pie every year for Thanksgiving dinner at my brother's. Then my mother started coming to my brother's Thanksgiving dinner (instead of spending it with her husband's son's family). The first year she came, I made my pecan pie and everybody loved it as always. So the next year, my mother commandeered dessert and brought pie from a bakery. So I made cranberry-orange relish instead, and everybody loved it. Lo and behold, the following year, my mother brought bakery pie and canned cranberry sauce that she doctored up with orange juice.
Ouch. It's weird how sometimes these mostly-forgotten memories come roaring back to ambush. I guess the one upside of my brother moving out of the country is that I no longer have to worry about spending Thanksgiving with my mother.
Quote from: Kizzie on September 22, 2022, 03:12:13 PM
She would cozy up to my friends and become their friend and of course they would love her and say things like what a great Mom you have.
N's do not share, they take things, ideas. place, people, etc., away from you and make it theirs. It takes something from you literally and emotionally it takes something out out of you, it wounds you yet again. You can't have any special just for you or that you can share even. It has to be theirs.
I'm so sorry about your orchids Dolly :hug:
Thanks Kizzie, I appreciate that :hug: I really felt when I wrote that yesterday how going through things like that makes you feel like you can't have anything, and maybe understand a bit better why I withdraw into my shell or maybe give things a pass in groups. I also think people are naturally competitive, so when you have that as your foundation you're also at a disadvantage.
Because of their behaviour, cosying up or acting like a victim (poor her etc), it gets glossed over and you end up looking irrational for getting angry, or in self doubt questioning yourself if it's you, and you're making it up. This is what happens with covert ns.
I feel like a big sticking point with my family and understanding what was going on, that it's not normal and not healthy, was that my gm told me all the time how much she loved me, how she would do anything for me. I looked up if narcissists can actually love and found "it appears the narcissist is incapable of love because they cover their vulnerabilities by withholding emotional intimacy." So, yes she would say those things but it was always a one way street or not sharing what was actually going on with her unless it was something to do with her health and then it was like you *had* to feel sorry for her, or take care of her. She wouldn't do anything to take care of her health. No exercise, eating right etc. I was floored when I found out that my gm had been going to a psychologist and psychiatrist for years. I briefly talked to her about seeing a therapist once and she told me that they don't help really, you have to figure it out on your own (or something to that effect). Like why couldn't you say that you saw one? It's such a facade of relation. For a little kid though, and for a long time after, you believe that "love" though I think.
Sending you a warm hug if that's OK Dolly, you sound like you could use it. And for that part of you that needs to hear it, I would admire your orchid's, and tell you what a great gardener you are and I would mean it and want you to feel proud of yourself. :yes:
Aww thanks Kizzie, I felt that :hug: I will try and bring a conscious effort of specialness back to my plants. I hope you have found some of your specialness back too :grouphug:
I think it's rare to get to talk about these things outside of with t with people who "get it." Especially with covert ns because it's really so mind splitting to go through it.