Out of the Storm

In another thread Dutch Uncle indicated he would like to talk about how his FOO's religious beliefs were partly responsible for the development of his CPTSD. (See http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=2278.msg14996#msg14996.)

Given that discussions of personal faith may be very delicate/disturbing for some, the Mod Team would like to know how members feel about this.  Please let us know below or PM one of us if you'd rather keep your opinion private.

Tks!

Thanks Kizzie.

If any wish for such a thread is expressed to here, publicly or via PM, I'd like to clarify that the purpose, the usefulness of such a thread in relation to cPTSD would be to talk about abuse suffered in a religious context, and not about the religion per se.
I'm afraid that in any religion abuse occurs, and certainly also among those who consider themselves not religious, so I'd wish it not to be a thread on religion as such.

The line between the two will obviously be thin. The two will be 'enmeshed', is I think the appropriate term considering this issue.

Thanks for considering, and leaving the issue open for at least the possibility of such a thread, if a wish/need of it will surface.  :thumbup:

(this reply was copied from the thread I first mentioned starting such a thread)

I'm all for it. I have been traumatized by the use of religious affiliation by my FOO as well, and while Religion is a touchy subject, and can be personally triggering for me, I would find it helpful to be able to talk about these things.

I just think that maybe if we were talking about religion in a sense of how it like destroyed us, there should be a thread for that.

But also if Religion has been something that has empowered us or helped us in a any sense, there should be a separate thread for that...

So they are not mixed...and it doesn't cause fighting...and members know where to go, to share what..

If that makes sense.

This is a tricky one for sure. I feel fear just thinking about posting about it haha. But if it's something that hurt us, why can't we talk about it?

Thanks for making the distinction clear Dutch Uncle, that does help to clarify things. It may be an idea to have separate threads as Kayfly has suggested. That is:

1) Positive perceptions of religion - faith is helpful to members dealing with CPTSD; and,

2) Negative perceptions of religion - religious values/behaviour of perpetrator contribute(d) to the development of the member's CPTSD (abuse cloaked as religion wielded to shame, control, etc)

I am wondering if a third thread might be relevant for those of us who consider ourselves spiritual but not religious, or who have a personal philosophy such as humanism?   

Many of my posts have touched on aspects of this, as much of my cptsd history involves humiliating, disgusting physical/sexual/emotional tyranny I experienced at "religious" "schools" I was hostage to for my entire youth, grades k-12. I put quote marks around religious and schools because they were only nice respectable cover words for the slime they perpetrated within their walls.

While I've included that story in some of what I've shared in this forum, I've tried to steer clear of beliefs, dogma, etc., all of that. It was never the point. I really don't care about that stuff. If all that dogma was important to them, it sure wasn't to me; my only concern during those years was my personal survival--a different "save me" mentality than they thought.   

The negative of what I endured is easy--no one, anywhere, at any time, in any culture, in any creed, should ever be subjected to that wretched experience. I'm sorry--it's hard for me to muster the strength and certainly find okay words (remember the swearing discussion?) to contain the anger that is sweeping over me right now but I'll try to get a grip.

Okay, stuff happened, and I'm left sifting through the still smoldering rubble of memory.   :fallingbricks:  :pissed:  :sadno:  :'(  :'(  :'(

There actually is a "positive" outcome, surprise, surprise. No thanks to them, though; but to my own spirit, despite their efforts to destroy it. So the "good" is that I had a front-row seat to hatred, bigotry, hypocrisy, and violence on all levels. Dogma? Love hurts, it's about all I came away with--they didn't teach that love hurt, but it's what I learned. The word, like so many, was just a cover that they felt good about, I guess ('cause there's certainly no logic to it).

Don't worry--I'll wind this rant down now. This just hits every raw emotion so hard.   

Dutch Uncle's point echoes the only value in such a thread--and that's to keep any discussions in the context of cptsd  and not collapse into religious arguments that go no where. There's a fine line sometimes...example: if I see a disconnect about "love" as I experienced it, I'm not denying anyone's religious tenet, but expressing my confused feelings at the disconnect between what was taught and what was practiced. Danged  :stars: if I could tell what they meant by their words; they didn't match the actions. Does that make sense?

Because of the role it plays in society, religious references can creep into posts, if the writer has symptoms or EF's that stem from it, whether there's a specific category on the board for it or not. If it was a prime cause of your cptsd problems, for sure it will pop up.

I've never named the religion involved in anything I've written about, only the what/why/how I was so damaged by it. I tried to stick with how it directly hurt me, but not by pouncing on or rejecting tenets of any religion per se. Just the word religion is a strong trigger for me; but so is school...I can't help that, but that's not like saying a religion or belief system is invalid. What I said above bears repeating: I don't care about the outer, it's the inner "me" I'm dealing with.

I do have opinions, but who cares...when I come to this site, it's to find out how cptsd affects people, what I can learn from others about it, and hopefully be able to contribute where I can. This is just about bruised people trying to make their way up from the swamp. There's a zillion internet sites for religious rants, OOTS isn't one of them.

Thanks; hope I didn't offend, this topic comes dangerously close to a lot of my deepest scars.

Okay--so I got totally carried away by that last post; maybe I'll pull it, but I'll let it sit there for now, and concur with what Kizzie wrote about the 3-thread approach; that sounds cool.

I've been helped a lot in my cptsd recovery by approaches like  humanism, nondual spirituality, that sort of thing.

So if I leave my rant up, well it does reflect the level of agitation than can happen when religion goes bad, I guess.

Otherwise, yeah, there's lots of values that I'm sure many here have found in all these various philosophies. It might be valuable to know about them and, more importantly, how they've helped people come to grips with their cptsd journey.

woodsgnome, you always try to be honest and even-handed even when you are having a rant. and what's wrong with the occasional rant, i add. i really appreciate what you wrote here. you are genuinely one of the 'good guys'. thank you.

I like that idea Kizzie.

I consider myself spiritual, but have had bad experiences with religion, but have had good experiences with religion. Haha so I feel like I would apply to all of those three threads.

Rant away Woodsgnome, I think there is cause. Whether or not members subscribe to a certain faith or not, I think the majority of us would agree that any position of authority is subject to abuse and that we each can distinguish between when something is healthy and when it is not, and that this distinction isn't restricted to religion.

For example, motherhood is cult-like for me in that I was raised to believe that I was "bad" if I thought/felt/acted like my M was anything other than a good mother. And society supported her.  It took decades for me to even let the thought into consciousness that she had held my spirit captive essentially, abused and controlled me with this belief that used to make me weep on Mother's Day as I stood in the card aisle. She was not a good mother. That simple sentence threatened my sense of self more than anything else I have ever feared.

It isn't motherhood per se that I am critical of, rather it's how my mother used her "good mother" status to abuse me while other mothers do nurture, love and protect their children. Similarly, there are religious leaders who misuse their image of "goodness" and omnipotence to control and manipulate, while others do not.  My view on the "cult of motherhood" is bound to make some people uncomfortable (and it has), but it's a valuable conversation to have imo.  We don't all grow up with Hallmark mothers and it's important to acknowledge that as individuals and as a society. The same is true for religion - some have positive experiences while others do not.

FWIW, I think as long as we're all clear about this kind of distinction we could have a rational, considerate discussion.

I think your experience of the cult of motherhood is a great example of how potentially divisive aspects of ones personal history can be talked about, Kizzie.

(By the way, I have always had the same experience in the card isle. :( ) 

I think we can show toleration for people's various beliefs while also being true to ourselves and what we have survived.

I was forced to go to church and religious schools from age 7 to 14 and much of what I experienced was traumatizing.

Great post, woodsgnome. Please don't erase. 

I like what you said too Woodsgnome. I think its important that you get that message across for sure.

I want to echo (without much fanfare) what's been said today (while I as off line). 

And I'd add that the care and sensitivity with which everyone has addressed this question is truly remarkable. 

Experience described here make clear that religion has been a source of control and oppression for some people, though of course not for everyone.  To deny that reality is as dismissive of the experience as the glorification of family would seem to a great many of us.  Yet we manage to talk about experience in families without trashing all family connections or individual families.  Surely the same principles can be applied to religion.

I am all for it as well and like the idea of the 3 different threads.  For many us the abuses from religion whether at church, school, or as a result of how the beliefs were twisted by our parents to do whatever they wanted, to control or oppress is real to our experiences and are significant to the development of our CPTSD.  It isn't about religion, per se as Dutch Uncle stated, it is about how the abuse of any religion is a trigger for us and effects.

MaryAnn

Quote from: stillhere on September 10, 2015, 03:02:53 AM
To deny that reality is as dismissive of the experience as the glorification of family would seem to a great many of us.  Yet we manage to talk about experience in families without trashing all family connections or individual families.  Surely the same principles can be applied to religion.

Well said.  :thumbup:

Hi Everyone - Great discussion :thumbup:

We are going to leave this thread open until Sunday just in case there are others who want to add something, and then we'll go from there.

It sounds like we will go ahead so if you have any thoughts on where you'd like to see these new threads please let us know.

Quote from: Kizzie on September 11, 2015, 06:27:26 PM
It sounds like we will go ahead so if you have any thoughts on where you'd like to see these new threads please let us know.

Quote from: Kizzie on September 09, 2015, 08:09:47 PM
1) Positive perceptions of religion - faith is helpful to members dealing with CPTSD; and,

2) Negative perceptions of religion - religious values/behaviour of perpetrator contribute(d) to the development of the member's CPTSD (abuse cloaked as religion wielded to shame, control, etc)

I am wondering if a third thread might be relevant for those of us who consider ourselves spiritual but not religious, or who have a personal philosophy such as humanism?

I can see value in the three-stage approach. I certainly would like a "positive perceptions of non-religious philosophies" if there would be one on religion. And that should include atheism. (while I label myself agnostic, I know many would label me as atheist. Which is fine by me, the line is thin.) With of course all the bars set for not pressing ones atheism on others.

As for where they should go?
I'd say the abuse in a religious context should be with all the other abuse, so in Out of the Storm » CPTSD and Us » CPTSD and Us » Abuse (Sexual, Physical, Emotional) & Neglect/Abandonment
It might be sufficient to just add "Religious" to the sub forum's description.

The positive sides (both religious and non-religious) would best fit under the Recovery sub forum I guess, under tools of recovery? Out of the Storm » CPTSD and Us » Recovery » Tools for Recovery

But perhaps you'd like to keep the three together.
Though I think a Religion/non-Religion sub forum with all three will only emphasize the special status of "Religious Affairs", and possibly defies the purpose of making the religious abuse a subject that can be told, shared, acknowledged and possibly/hopefully resolved and recovered from, just like the other abuses.

IMHO religious abuse is not worse than any other, and no special tools are needed to work through it. In all likelihood (IMHO) it's just another one that has been thrown in the complex mix we endure in our cPTSD, and all the tools available for dealing with cPTSD can be applied to religious/spiritual or even atheist abuse equally well, and will require equal effort for us to do.

Quote from: Dutch Uncle on September 12, 2015, 08:19:22 AM
I think a Religion/non-Religion sub forum with all three will only emphasize the special status of "Religious Affairs", and possibly defies the purpose of making the religious abuse a subject that can be told, shared, acknowledged and possibly/hopefully resolved and recovered from, just like the other abuses.

IMHO religious abuse is not worse than any other, and no special tools are needed to work through it. In all likelihood (IMHO) it's just another one that has been thrown in the complex mix we endure in our cPTSD, and all the tools available for dealing with cPTSD can be applied to religious/spiritual or even atheist abuse equally well, and will require equal effort for us to do.

I agree DU, my NPDM's "good mother" beliefs were used on us in much the same way as religious belief systems are used to abuse and control, and was as tough to wrench free from as I imagine religion must be for others.

What seems to underlie the discussion in this thread is the notion that there are many types of belief systems that can nurture and sustain or abuse and degrade depending on how they are used and by whom. As such, perhaps this might benefit from a separate forum, something along the lines of: "Beliefs: The Good, The Bad and Ugly" (where "ugly" expands the causes of CPTSD beyond familial, childhood abuse to adulthood and includes abuse/trauma which is social/political/other in nature (e.g., prostitution, slavery, war zone survivors, etc). Each would have be a child board and come with an explanation. For example:

• "Good" Beliefs - This forum is for those who wish to post about any religious, spiritual or philosophical beliefs that help you in recovery/life;


• "Bad" Beliefs - This forum is for those who wish to post about any religious, philosophical or personal beliefs (yours or others) that contribute(d) to your CPTSD; and,


• "Ugly" Beliefs - This forum is for those who wish to share about any political or societal beliefs that contribute(d) to CPTSD (e.g., living in/fleeing from a war zone; slavery/prostitution, suffering ongoing abuse based on race, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, etc.).

I know that some of what is in "Ugly" could go under "Bad" but by making these types of ongoing abuse more distinct it invites those whose CPTSD does not fall into the more obvious/common childhood, familial abuse to recognize they may have CPTSD and to see OOTS as a safe haven.   

Anyway, lots of thoughts to kick around.  All feedback is welcome :yes:

Whew! Just like religion itself, there's 1,001.735 ways to take any discussions in this vein. I've felt pretty careful, not wanting to step on toes. But that's awful, this self-stifling on top of all the other self-sabotage.

Something else...my antagonism with how my journey was sabotaged by people wearing religious garb might be obvious from what I've written in various posts, bordering on rants. Almost fair game, though, considering the rants I had to endure back in the time when I could only sit through the ones being hurled my way.

But I think what I've seen posted here that has touched on the religious minefield has stopped far short of the upper rant levels. So there's lots of good ("I was truly helped by"), bad ("awful stuff") and ugly ("I was utterly humiliated") to go around, and get around (or through).

So even if the new threads aren't open yet, I'll just say here that as an apatheist, it looks like a good approach to walk across the eggshells, as it were. Uh-oh? Apatheist? Dinna worry, it just means I'm apathetic towards religion or spiritual-whatever-it's-called. And experiencing the dungeons of religious intolerance, also stirred a deep search through spiritual literature of all sorts, just to find what I'd been denied, and to get a handle on what truly appealed to that person I wasn't allowed to be--me. For many are cold, few are frozen.

And yes, religion can even be funny...going back to the garden of eden, when the deity tipped its hand towards a preference for Chrysler products by driving his human buddies out of the garden in his Fury.

A thought about labeling boards focused on religion:  I think the word "religion" or perhaps "religion/spirituality" should be explicit.  "Belief," I contend, is too general and can encompass beliefs from many sources, lots of which are already covered in the topics listed.

Besides belief (that is, theology) and a source of personal philosophy, religion is about identity, community, and control.  It is for many an extension of family, for good or ill, and so has already been discussed in a number of OOTS threads.

While I appreciate all the sensitivity expressed here, I note that "religious abuse" is increasingly a documented phenomenon, as evidenced by its Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_abuse

So I'd suggest incorporating "religion" or "religion/spirituality" in names of boards.  Perhaps one could be something like "religion/spirituality as resource in recover" and be placed under "recovery."  Another could be "religious/spiritual abuse" and be placed with "CPTSD and us." 

Making a focus on religion explicit should be helpful to new and returning members, who would then find the index of topics clearer.

I appreciate the sensitivity expressed here, and I'm  well aware that someone might be offended by a post that fingers a particular religion as a source of abuse.  But the norm on this forum has been so clearly to avoid naming names that I think the risk is minimal.

Quote from: Kizzie on September 12, 2015, 05:47:39 PM
What seems to underlie the discussion in this thread is the notion that there are many types of belief systems that can nurture and sustain or abuse and degrade depending on how they are used and by whom. As such, perhaps this might benefit from a separate forum, something along the lines of: "Beliefs: The Good, The Bad and Ugly"

I beg to differ, as the English can put it so eloquently well.

So perhaps I should be a bit more blunt:
It is my full intention to create, or allow, openness on Religious abuse. It has been my experience, and I have gotten the impression this is shared by others here, that Religious abuse is in the realm of taboo, just as sexual abuse still is (by and large), parental abuse, bullying and physical abuse, and getting emotional neglect recognized as abuse is also still a problem. All these are in the realm of taboo, and the more time I spend on OOTS, the more I see/witness that one of the issues we deal with as victims of these kind of abuses, is that we struggle to get the message across to those who have not experienced it themselves.

It is my impression (though I'm pretty much convinced this is not a fantasy of mine, nor an axe I have to grind) that Religious abuse escapes the scrutiny and condemnation it deserves exactly for the reason that has been mentioned here: That religion also is such a great tool for comfort (paraphrased by me). There is still a deeply held vision that where Religious abuse is perpetrated, that this must be done by those who are not 'truly religious'. And it is my personal view that exactly that is what is so hurtful for those who suffered from it: we have actually got the concept of religion 'wrong' (either the specific religion in which the abuse was perpetrated, or faith/belief in general). This adds insult to injury.

Just as there are no sections here on this forum for "Good Physical contact with parents", "Good Sex Ed.", "Good Emotional Support", "Good abandonment after Divorce", "My happy childhood/FOO" etc. etc. this forum probably does not need a "Good Religion" section.

Perhaps it's best to drop the whole notion of introducing "religion" as a positive force to be specifically mentioned in the recovery section, purely for the sensitivities that surround the acknowledgment of Religion as an abusive factor in peoples lives.
With that also the "non-religious philosophies" to offset sensitivities to that can be discarded.

And any "religious discussions" will be avoided wholesale, and the focus can be put on the issue at hand for a fair amount of people here in the community: the abuse we suffered, in a religious context, and how to deal with that.

Quote from: stillhere on September 12, 2015, 06:48:18 PM
While I appreciate all the sensitivity expressed here, I note that "religious abuse" is increasingly a documented phenomenon, as evidenced by its Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_abuse

Great resource, thanks for digging that up and presenting that here.
I would like to see that issues outlined there can be addressed at the site here, for what it has been in the personal experience of those who suffered the effects, and recognize it as a contributing (or perhaps even: only (!)) factor in their experience of cPTSD.

Quick stray thought that just floated by...now where'd it go? Ah, there it is, I'll post it here and then be gone...

The thought is just that everything done on this site/forum by its very nature is spiritual--we're exploring the core (spirit) of our lives, our innermost selves. Always/already...

There, it's out of "my" cobwebs. Spirit cleaning, I suppose.

Quote from: woodsgnome on September 12, 2015, 08:12:01 PM
Quick stray thought that just floated by...now where'd it go? Ah, there it is, I'll post it here and then be gone...

The thought is just that everything done on this site/forum by its very nature is spiritual--we're exploring the core (spirit) of our lives, our innermost selves. Always/already...

There, it's out of "my" cobwebs. Spirit cleaning, I suppose.

Love it.  :thumbup:

Reading and catching up on this thread.  The thoughts, ideas, and possible approaches from DU, stillhere, and Woodsgnome are all sentiments that I concur with.  :thumbup:

The Southern Baptist religion is abusive from get go as a result of their beliefs about men and women.  There are many strong believers and many take their interpretation of this religion to its extreme.  There are many of them in the U.S. I will never walk into a Southern Baptist Church again  :no:.  My experience growing up in this church, which really seems more like a cult, is what turned to the path of agnosticism. 

It is like politics, I do not need someone or a group telling me how I should think, believe, behave, love, treat, or accept others.  I can think for myself and do not feel any religion should express hatred or intolerance towards anyone.  And, it should not tell parents how to punish their child and should never teach that physical abuse is the answer.  I belief in the "Teachings" of Jesus Christ, much like Buddhism, or Hinduism.  But, I am an INTJ / INFJ personality and do not really have a whole lot of respect for authority if it is simply because someone is entitled to it. I belief in educating and respecting all individuals so that they can form their own ideas about how they would want to treated and how they should treat others.  We are all equal, none of us or better than another.  Regardless of which religion it is, all should be open minded to different forms of love and expression as long as it is respectful, express' love in a healthy way, shows tolerance, and is not abusive. 

Sorry, that turned in to a bit a rant I guess.  But, this subject is one that I struggle with the most.  And, it is not one that I can talk about in the area I live in.  Most would look at me like I was Satan himself. They would never talk to me again if I told them that I really didn't believe in organized religion or that there is not "God" but more likely some spiritual forces at work in the vast universe that we are not meant to ever understand.  I understand why others are drawn to various religions and I am tolerant of them, respect their beliefs.  But, that same tolerance and respect is not expressed by many towards those of us that think differently and do not have faith.

MaryAnn  :'(

i checked out the link to the religious abuse article above. i have done a lot of research and i knew the facts explained there but it still managed to trigger such anguish.  the cult i was in, it ticks literally all the boxes except a couple. took me a long time even so, to accept that it was a cult. and i still feel guilty about saying it out loud. 

i have longed to find a space to be able to share openly about this still largely taboo subject. it's been such a huge part of my life and the effects that it has had on me are so deep. the cptsd i believe is a result of it, in the main.  anyway i hope this thread may be a start.

I am right there with you Arpy1! :thumbup:

I feel exactly the same way as you expressed below:

Quotei have longed to find a space to be able to share openly about this still largely taboo subject. it's been such a huge part of my life and the effects that it has had on me are so deep.

I know that many would not share the same about Southern Baptists but all you have to is look at churches like Westboro in Kansas to see how extreme it can be.  My experience is with a milder form, more covert, but they think much the same way but they do not express it as openly, publicly as the extreme cases.  But, none the less, I would say it really is a cult.

I also hope this thread is a start.

MaryAnn :thumbup:

So from what everyone has contributed (and tks all), perhaps the best approach to is to create a separate forum "Types of Trauma/Abuse" and include separate child boards. For example:

• Sexual Abuse (this could include sexual exploitation)
• Physical Abuse
• Emotional Abuse
• Religious Abuse
• Addiction and Abuse/Trauma (many of us were raised by parents with an addiction)
• Personality Disorders and Abuse/Trauma (many of us were raised by parents with a PD)
• Other (additional child boards could be added if/when different types are being raised regularly such as political -- living with oppression/war; societal - the cult of motherhood, being marginalized due to sexual orientation; racism....; and so on.)

This makes it clear that abuse and trauma come in many forms, some of which have  not been well recognized or are taboo.

Would this work?

As for the beliefs, tools, etc., that help us to recover perhaps we can think about including those in existing forums/child boards by adding and/or refining.

Quoteperhaps the best approach to is to create a separate forum "Types of Trauma/Abuse" and include separate child boards. For example

i like this approach, kizzie, i can see it working out well  :yes:

I like it too! :thumbup:

Yeah. Like it.  :thumbup:

Great, we'll set that up.  We'll also shift some relevant threads into the new child boards.  If you see a thread that should be moved plse PM any of the Mods and we'll see about shifting those as well.

Tks for all the great discussion and feedback on this everyone!

The "Religious Abuse" section seems to have vanished into thin air.

Any particular reason for that?

I noticed the r word's disappearance as well. The last "preview" did list it as included.

obviously someone writing about religious abuse could put it in different areas, which is what was done so far anyway. So much of it, though, originates from those r experiences, as was discussed in the thread.

Meanwhile, kudos to Kizzie and the mods for taking this on, and soliciting opinions--lots of boards would probably just go ahead without asking the members. Thanks.
:applause:  :applause:  :applause:

No reason other than old age lol.   :doh:  It has been included now.

Using religion as a way to manipulate children is a good topic. They got away with it because no one dared challenge them (in my case it was my parents).  I feel like if I don't find a way to talk about it that is accurate (and therefore not offensive), then they win because they were able to silence me in some way.

Hi Tired - Sorry to hear your parents manipulated you using religion, it seems like it is common  unfortunately.  :hug:

I'm glad that as a community we were able to figure out a way for us to be open though. Yay us! :cheer:  Now that there is a separate section which is about abuse specifically, anyone can feel free to post in the religion board specifically about how it was used against them, without insulting or upsetting those whose faith was not used in this way. :thumbup:

Dear Kizzie,

I want to take the opportunity in this thread to express my gratitude and admiration for the task you've done.

Not only have you handled this complex and sensitive subject with openness, fairness and diligence, but you also did the momentous task of splitting the old section into separate child boards and rearranged the posts into each category. Not a simple task for sure, as many of the threads were not so easy to categorize from the subject title only.

I hereby want to extend to you a heartfelt :udawoman:

i second that, Kizzie. thank you for all the work you put in  :applause: :applause: :applause:

No problem!  It's always great to have some good discussion and feedback into making OOTS relevant for everyone.  :yes: