Out of the Storm

Well, I'm basically going to pretend I have an inner child with polio, or is autistic or something, and have to work extra hard parenting him.  So I went to yoga yesterday.  It was good.  Then I asked three different women I know if they'd like to go for a coffee this week.  One has gotten back to me and said yes.  I think Valentine's Day is going to be a bummer, though.  Maybe I'll go and get a bunch of those cheap "Be My Valentine" cards and fill them out from a bunch of fake women to the little boy.  That may be an all right thing to do.  I'm going to go to a poetry slam on Wednesday and read some of my poetry.

***TRIGGER WARNING****

So, I was walking to yoga again this morning around 5:30, and a building before this bank, I looked up to see a woman hitting the ground and scrambling up, then as I came up, I was taking off my headphones, and she was grappling with this guy in the entrance to the ATM.  I said "This $#%@! ain't going to happen!" to them, and she said "He just tried to rape me!".  I asked her if she wanted me to walk her somewhere.  She was pretty angry and wound up, and he was very sheepish and distant.  He threw a knife on the ground and said "She just tried to stab me with this."  Yeah, right, then why was it inside your jacket?  I picked it up and told her I'd walk her if she wanted and she was just swearing at him, so I pulled out my phone and dialled 911.  She said "I don't want the $%#%@ cops" and started walking away.  He started walking away in the other direction as I talked to 911.  They were both gone by the time the cops showed up ten minutes later.  I dropped the knife on the ground and told them what happened and described both of them.  One cop got out and took the knife, and I headed off to yoga.  Ten minutes after I was done talking to the cops, I was laying in Savasana.  It was very weird.  That's the start of my week.  Don't know what happened really, but I feel pretty good about getting in the middle of it.  I was thinking as I walked:  how often have I had things like that happen?  15 or 20 for sure.  And I don't really understand it.  No-one gets aggressive with me.  I'm not small, nor big.  Five ten, one eighty pounds sort of thing.  I am completely relaxed in that sort of situation, though.  I think maybe I learned as a kid how being afraid and upset when in violence or being threatened just antagonized my Mom and my sisters, so I can just sort of completely relax and be accepting of whatever happens.  Maybe that throws people off and it comes across as supreme confidence when I'm faced with violence.  I hope the cops caught up with the guy.  I could still see him shambling along way down the street two minutes before the cops came, and told them so.  If they put in any effort to actually get him, they would have had no problem.  The guy was not fast, and there's no real way to evade them with how those streets of the city are laid out, and I gave a good description.  Feel pretty bad for the girl.  She is native, and where I'm from, I don't think I'd want to have any interactions with the cops if I were her, either.  All the envelopes and papers in the ATM were thrown around and all over the floor in the ATM.  Feel this huge sadness somehow about that, but glad I showed up when I did.

Anyhow, I'm home now, and am kind of letting little boy me sit in an awareness that I can protect him.  That there's a pretty tough Dad he has. 

Meursault

That's awesome! Thank you for being there and helping her.

warrior spirit to the fore, meursault!  i'm really glad you were there.

Definitely TRIGGERS....  graphic...my childhood etc...

I don't think I ever really described my past growing uphere , in one go, so I'm going to do it now.  I think I've edited the language appropriately, but there is still some harshness in the stuff I'm recounting, even without profanity.  I wrote this last fall.  I don't know, the thing that happened this morning makes me feel like I'm allowed to actually bring this up, stupidly, I suppose.  Sort of, because how I helped that woman today, maybe people won't just see me as a monster when I tell them about growing up.  I've definitely mentioned some of this, but the following was an attempt to sort of write it all out.  Also, I think I subconsciously provoked my Mom last week, and have spent the last few days feeling quite a bit better, thinking that might be the final straw for her, and maybe she won't talk to me again.  Feeling kind of like this stuff can be addressed or something now.  Anyhow...

My Mom and Dad split up when I was five, but it was kind of weird, and the whole family was together weekends and summer holidays. I have three older sisters. So mostly I grew up with my Mom and three sisters.

My Dad was an alcoholic, but generally a pretty nice guy. There were only a couple of people he treated like crap, but I was one. There were lots of put downs and undermining from him, and when he was mad, he'd occasionally throw tools at me. That continued into my twenties, and we worked together until he died a few years ago. Once when he was yelling at me, about age 18, he said "Everybody needs a whipping boy, and you're mine! That's how it's supposed to work. Your mother takes it out on me, and I take it out on you. What the $#%#$%# do you think we had you for in the first place?" And then he proceeded to empty a toolbox of wrenches, throwing them one at a time at me. It was that kind of attitude I was treated with by him. He told me he was glad I was around, because my Mom took it out on me instead of him. He wasn't very nice to me unless I was drinking with him or working like a dog. He was the good parent.

My Mom HATES males. She is the stereotypical man-hating feminist. Way more though. She was always in a rage, and would go on at length how men should be tortured, raped, castrated etc. Any misfortune which happened to a man was cheered (often literally). Whether a man got hurt, cut off in traffic, lost his job, was cheated on etc. My Mom was filled with glee about how the "typical male" deserved it. She'd celebrate when she found out some guy was diagnosed with cancer, laugh when a guy's wife left him and excitedly say how he was now going to die alone like the $#@$@# deserved etc...  She'd go into graphic detail of how men should be castrated and raped on pretty well a daily basis. She threatened me with it often enough too, but probably not more than once or twice a week on average. I can't count the number of times she said how the world would be better if "we could just figure out how to get rid of all you male $#%!$#s". She's mellowed out a bit with it now, but from my earliest memories on, that's what I got. I have memories of thinking she'd kill me or worse from four or five, and never really expected to live. The threats were common, though. I remember waking up regularly, from about six onward, wishing I had just died in my sleep. Tons of shame and guilt for being male, but at the same time, I LIKE my masculinity. Mostly, I'm fairly normal, I think, except I get my sense of self-worth from what women think of me, and there's all the crippling anxiety and despair!  Somehow, I still find sex, and my own sexuality, beautiful and tender and open.

Men were all monsters, and women angels to my Mom, and we had that indoctrinated into us. There was daily, rage-filled "oration" about rape and domestic violence, often exceedingly graphic, and how people like me, "typical males", were responsible. "You male $#@%s will get what's coming to you.", "Someone ought to just chop off that little $#%# of yours.", "I ought to send you to jail and then you'd get what you deserve. See how you like it with all those big, tough guys having their way with you."... Things like that were said so much I can't even begin to count how often. I don't remember much from before four, but that was constant until I got kicked out at 18.

My three sisters are older, but not significantly so, and they reinforced my Mom. I was just bad, rotten, no good. Lucky to even be alive, because I didn't deserve it. Because of the different temperaments, I was told I was garbage in all sorts of ways, from rage filled yelling, to "just be reasonable" intellectual arguments, to humiliation and teasing, to playing on my empathy to not make my Mom angrier and have her take it out on my sisters. All sorts of things. I was put down and invalidated from every direction. My Dad didn't care enough. He wouldn't challenge my Mom, he was too scared, and anyhow, I was thoroughly the scapegoat, even to him.  I have no idea how I managed to do well throughout school, and work full time on the farm from about age 12 onward.

I think of having a newspaper article read about a rape read to me at five years old, and then my Mom flying into a rage about what a monster I was, a "typical male" and the ensuing hostility from my sisters, and I just can't seem to connect to it. I don't have any emotions except a low-grade anxiety which surrounds everything, anyways. I bet she read EVERY newspaper article about a rape aloud between the ages of 5 and 15.

There wasn't much physical abuse, though many times, my Mom has proudly retold how she bit me and drew blood and how I was howling (before I remember, so maybe two or three). That was an example of her good and creative parenting. There was pinching and scratching, spanking, pushing, and being thrown around by my sisters somewhat, and my Mom a bit, plus my Dad throwing things at me, but by and large, the threats to kill me, castrate me, throw me in jail etc. were enough.  My whole life she proudly recounted how she refused to name me, and my Dad finally did because the hospital was pressuring them since I couldn't be released without being named.

I don't really know what to say about sexual stuff. The constant discussions of rape, in graphic detail, and blaming me were messed up. That's some of the hardest stuff to deal with. I try to meet women, and I think I just go into a terrible state of emotional flashback. Going into graphic detail about how I deserved to be castrated, hung up by my testicles, sodomized etc. because I am male would maybe fit, but I don't know. Graphic descriptions of how I should be violated were pretty common. I have only one explicit memory of anything actually happening. I was going down on two of my sisters. I think I was four. I remember it wasn't at all unfamiliar, and I remember liking it, but was disgusted by the idea of doing that with my Mom or other sister. From four until probably nine or ten, I remember playing with my teddy bears, taking turns and teaching them how to go down on my sister's Barbie dolls. I have what I'm pretty sure is a cigarette burn at the base of my penis. That's been there as long as I can remember. I've given myself enough cigarette scars since, I'm pretty sure that's what it is. Anyhow, I only remember that one time with my sisters explicitly, and I don't know, maybe I initiated it. No idea. I remember my Mom afterwards telling me I couldn't do that any more, and being very understanding, which is so peculiar for her it makes me wonder. Anyhow.  At the same time, a regular threat when I was little was she was going to tie me up naked and hang me by my testicles and let my sisters have their way with me.  [Why do I have a hard time thinking that's abuse???]

So in my family, I was "bad". I always wanted to leave, but was too scared as a kid. I'd run away, and imagine they would all realize they loved me and be better when I got back, but that never happened. I had stuff like my Mom making me pin my dog against the house with a rake while she whipped him repeatedly with a metal wound electrical cord, yelling about what a "typical male" he was. Things like that. My Mom's hatred for males extends to cats and dogs even. She never gets male pets, as they're just "@#$@#$ males". News about rape had to be watched dutifully, with my Mom full of rage, talking about "typical males", "getting what's coming to them", "they ought to be castrated/raped/sodomized/jailed".

Anyhow. I hit puberty and hoped things would get better. They didn't. Girls didn't like me. I had terrible self-esteem, and was short and fat as a kid, so that rejection just ended up solidifying in me the sense of how disgusting and terrible I was. I continued to be unlovable. I had somehow been able to keep a nugget that "It is they who are wrong, and I'm not that bad", but when girls didn't like me, it just confirmed what I was told as a kid.  By about 20, I was diagnosed with Depression, Agoraphobia, and Social Phobia. I tried to talk about growing up at that point of seeing mental health professionals, but was silenced, even once being told "Shut up! I don't want to hear about your mother." So I gave up trying to deal with that. I never lost my virginity until I was 23, then life got pretty good for about eight years or so, and I was pretty good.

After a six year relationship ended in my early thirties, I became very depressed again. I cut quite a bit. I finally saw a brief treatment counsellor, and he was very helpful. I tried to see a private therapist after, but she was not good, so I gave up again. I just settled on thinking I'd work all summer with my Dad, then party and have one-night-stands all winter, which I did for the next few years.  Then the accident happened, and my Dad died.

Then I met my good therapist, and finally I've found someone who seems to care and understand and is safe (ish) and I can trust.  Now I see the hope for maybe dealing with this stuff, so I'm trying.  But it is certainly a lot of ups and downs.  I didn't expect that, I thought there would be these little cathartic moments all the time, and I'd work hard at it and slowly but surely improve.  My therapist says it doesn't work that way.  I kind of knew it didn't consciously, but I still had that expectation.

That's VERY abridged story of my traumatic past. Thanks for reading.  I feel like I am seen as overreacting when I talk about my sense of rejection from attractive women here, so maybe people can see where that comes from a bit.  Trust me, it's much more annoying and troublesome to me!  This is a pretty scary post to make, to be honest.

Meursault

Oh Meursault, I'm so sorry that little boy had to endure what you did. It makes me nauseated for you. You should have been cherished, protected, celebrated, adored!

You did not deserve any of that. Your M was a misandrist. To behave this way toward your own flesh and blood is unacceptable, unforgivable. If she had treated anyone else besides her own son that way, she is the one who would have gone to prison.

Your F was only a good parent when compared to how your M treated you.

It is no wonder you are afraid of people. I relate to you and your history so much! I hope you stand on top of the tallest building and shout to the heavens, "I am a beautiful person, a wonderful man!" someday and mean it with every ounce of your being.

You had no one growing up. I grieve with you for this fact - that there are people, like you and me, who were just little babies and were hated for our very gender.

I hope my wording is not too harsh. I realize you may very well still love your parents, as I loved mine. I do not want to insult them in any way! But you should never, never, never, never have been treated so cruelly.

meursault, as ever, you are a brave man with a wonderful heart.  never in my wildest dreams would i ever consider you a monster.  you've shown over and over the kindness of your soul.

may i suggest you go slow on the woman front until you get some of this sorted out.  there is so much crapola that was dumped on you by man-hating women that you not only didn't deserve, but that was a projection by them onto the nearest and most vulnerable male they could find.  you were simply an easy target for them because you were a hostage in your own home, too young to escape, and no resources to protect you. 

it's no wonder, to my mind, why having a loving relationship with a woman seems so important to you.  she would refute all those messages you got so long ago.  the only problem is, until you are able to refute some of them yourself, you'll continue to be unsure, still think of yourself negatively, put out those neg. vibes toward her, maybe even sabotage the relationship just to subconsciously prove your mother was right.

it's a weird dynamic we continue, that of keeping our parents' messages as true for ourselves at the same time wanting someone else to show us they were wrong.  i think this may be what your t meant when talking about having a woman in your life - you have to validate your own worth first, then she can support, encourage, and re-validate for you.  i don't know, i may be off, but that's how it plays out to me.  just my thoughts.

in the meantime, meursault, you continue to move forward, continue to work on this, and for that i give you so much credit.  onward - if nothing else, we are fighters at the same time being some of the kindest, caring people i've ever run across.  that is the warrior spirit to me.    big hug.

Thanks for what both of you said.  I'm really glad you both listen.  I tried reversing the genders and imagining a father and three older brothers treating a little girl the way I was, and saying and doing the things they did, and it seems pretty bad and clearly abuse, but I have a real hard time thinking that it would be seen as abuse in my case.  I have a real hard time with that.  It's just what was normal and I feel like I'm seen as "making a mountain out of a molehill" by having such a problem with it all.

Anyways, I'm currently very nervous.  I am a couple of hours away from going to a poetry slam and getting up on stage to read my poetry.  Hope I don't get laughed off the stage...

Meursault

hey, break a leg.

weird, isn't it, how we can see the same thing happening to another and call it abuse, but can't imagine the same for ourselves.  the insidiousness of this condition!  how abuse has been normalized for ourselves to the  point where we can believe we deserved it, we earned it, it was the right thing for us somehow.  wow!  i hate this crapola!

all i can say, meursault, is that it is the nature of the beast to believe those things, even that you're somehow 'different' from anyone else who has experienced such abuse.  no, it's not exactly the same for everyone, but abuse is abuse is abuse and no one, not any person, not any human being no matter who they are deserved or earned or should have been abused.  it's just wrong.  the abusers are wrong. 

i do believe that as you continue in recovery you can finally picture yourself as just another human, no better nor worse nor different than any one of us, who was taken advantage of, victimized, and hurt badly at the hands of others just because they could.  we're in this together, fighting to get our true selves back.  i have faith that you'll make it.  big hug.

Well, that was horrible.  Apparently I write utterly terrible poetry.  Like Vogon poetry bad.  Probably everything is just as bad.   My poetry was something I was most proud of about myself.  They had a bunch of judges and stuff, and I think my highest score was lower than the lowest any other poet got.  I must be just terrible.  Anyhow, maybe it's like that with everything I express.  Think I should stop coming here.

Meursault

Please don't stop coming here! I'll really miss you!

You are an important voice here on this forum, my friend. I've learned a lot from listening to you. Please don't go.

(By the way, I let the air out of all the judges' tires.) ;)

good one, 3roses!

your voice here is important, meursault.  unfortunately, when we put our creative selves out there for someone else to judge, it's not always pretty.  i wondered about the term 'poetry slam' that you used.  does that give those judges license to 'slam' what they don't like?  and who are they to be judging?  i'm sorry you had a rotten experience.  sucks.

this is not a 'slam', tho, so i hope you don't stop posting.  you have that kind of courage that is inspirational to others - how many of us would have put ourselves out there to have our thoughts and words judged?  you've shown that courage, too, with your postings, writing so honestly and showing your vulnerability - inspiring, absolutely!  so, i'm with 3 roses on wanting you to stay.  you are important to this forum.  big hug.

I hate how fragile I am.  It took me until now to get over that sense of how terrible I am, just from a negative response to my poetry.  Ugh.  Anyhow, I am back to a more rational state.  I hate this.  I used to be able to manage and not fall to pieces like this before my Dad died, but really, since then, I lost the ability to contain this stuff.  I suppose I was never great with it when it would be directly related to what women thought of me, but now everything seems to set me off. 

My therapist pointed out that I was prepared for things to be loopy after the trial, but really, I didn't see the form it would take, so I'm being thrown off constantly.  I actually stood up in our session and play acted an illustrative example of how my Mom treated me growing up, and she couldn't completely hide looking a bit disgusted, which is rare for her, she has really incredible self control.  I initially thought: "she's disgusted by me", but think she was just maybe a bit appalled by what I was showing.  I was a a wreck in our therapy this week, but think it was a good session.

A Facebook friend, whom I've only met once, posted about feeling pretty much the way I describe here.  About how she despairs of ever finding that connection, having a family/kids etc.  I responded that I feel the same way, and a mutual friend whom we have both known for a lot of years posted that "there are good guys out there, like [Meursault]"  So I messaged her and asked her to go for a coffee.  She agreed, so we're going tomorrow.  I find her really attractive, and I've seen several posts of hers that make me like her.  She seems to be pretty emotionally open, and clever.  She is also good friends with a guy who was national news years ago, due to being the victim of some really hideous crap.

I sort of think you are right in a way that I am maybe not entirely ready to date, Sanmagic, but I think I have to keep trying.  I think I am trusting my therapist on this one, who has encouraged me from the beginning to try to date, and she even suggests I try online dating sites.  And I was thinking quite a bit about how being accepted by women functions as a way of "refuting" the messages I got growing up.  I think that's pretty close, but it's not quite accurate.  It's more that without that acceptance and sense of being desired, I feel like I'm actively being told by women, universally, that they agree with it.  How can I argue with the fact that no-one actually DOES want me?  I'm alone, no one is interested in me, so what message am I being sent?  That they ALL have deemed me to be garbage and unlovable.  I can't seem to see this some other way, and it looks totally rational to me, but maybe it isn't.  I think that's why it becomes so frantically needy.  I feel like I'm a sham, trying with this woman and the date tomorrow, like I'm misrepresenting myself as someone worthy of her time.  But also there's a sense of "* no!  I have a lot of good things about me, and someone will see them and love me for them."

I guess there are a few things I'm pretty proud of this week.  I faced a guy who had a "stabby" garden tool and stopped what seems to be an attempted sexual assault.  I had the nerve to actually get on a stage and read poetry.  I took the high road and helped someone struggling, despite the fact that she said something supremely hurtful to me, and went to yoga with her becasue she couldn't go alone.  When I posted about the sexual assault to warn people I know on FB, one guy I know posted this smug rape apology comment, so I sort of shot him down pretty harshly, and I had a couple of people send me private messages thanking me for doing that.   That friend commenting about me being a good guy.    I went out for lunch with the woman I went to high school with, whom I loved utterly for years and was rejected by.  I'm in a tournament for a sport I play this weekend.  It's a team thing, and we lost our first game, but we have a few more at least.   I made supper for a female friend and she was impressed watching me prep and cook our food.  She had  a second plate, and was telling me how great it all was.  It made me feel surprisingly masculine.

Sanmagic, your comment about abuse being normal.  I really do have that belief, that somehow I alone am "different' and in any other case, it would have been unacceptable, but I am somehow "Special" (in a bad way), and it was right and fitting.  I suppose that is a child's way of making sense of it, so there is some sense and order to the world, even if it is hostile.  And then if it's believed, there is always a scrap of hope that "if I just figure out what makes me so bad, I can fix it and be loved".  Trying to have some sense of power in a situation where one is really powerless.

Anyhow, I hope I settle down emotionally soon.  This is exhausting.

Meursault

QuoteI really do have that belief, that somehow I alone am "different' and in any other case, it would have been unacceptable, but I am somehow "Special" (in a bad way), and it was right and fitting.

I feel this, too. However much I tell myself intellectually that I have worth, I don't feel it. But, it's getting easier to wrap my head around it. Or, maybe my heart. ♡

meursault, you're getting there.  you're taking risks, doing things, standing up for what you believe is right, putting yourself out there - you keep at it, keep moving.  i truly believe that as long as we keep moving, we're making progress.  sometimes we move forward, sometimes back, but it's still movement, we're still in the game or race or whatever you want to call it.  and you're doing it.

as much as we want to be special - believe me. i've been on that merry-go-round for far too long, am still on it more often than i wan! to admit - in either a good or bad way, it's hard to acknowledge, admit, and accept that we are all human, sharing all those same kind of human qualities.  what makes us special is our uniqueness as human beings, an innate uniqueness wherein no two of us have identical fingerprints.  we have our own gifts, our own perspectives, our own perceptions, our own talents and our own personalities.  that's what makes us special.  we don't have to go out of our way to prove our specialness, either in our lives or in our minds (sounds good, doesn't it?  maybe if i keep repeating this to myself, i've believe it more often!  lol!!!)

so, we give it our best shot, learn from it, and keep moving.  your dad's death was devastating to you, including all those years of aftermath.  you're just getting over all that.  i hope you can give yourself a break, and begin to enjoy you, who you are in all your glory.  you're worth that.  big hug.

Was doing pretty good.  But I have to admit.  Women utterly frustrate and confuse. me.  I had that date last Sunday.  It was awesome, neither of us had an awkward moment.  we sat around and talked for almost SIX hours.  I asked if she wanted to do something during the week, and she said "#@$#@$@# yeah!"  So We set up another date, and I texted her briefly a couple of times.  Didn't want to be too pushy or invasive.  They I texted her the day before and she said "we'll chat tomorrow".  So I say "Sounds good"  Text her the next day and she says she's on her period and will take a rain check.  So I say "That sucks, I was really looking forward to seeing you again.  Maybe on the weekend or something."  So I text her this morning, asking if she is free early in the week, and she doesn't get back to me.  I am going back to getting drunk all day every day from now on, and if necessary, getting at least a minimal amount of affection via prostitutes.  This is *, and I have no idea what's so wrong with me.  Clearly there is something though.  I give up.  And no one will even tell me what is so bad about me why they don't want me so I could actually change it.  It's a sick game and I can't take this any more.  I wish I had the strength to just kill myself.  Ugh.

I am shaking so badly I have to hold my head to read my computer screen.  Ugh.

Update:  A friend whom I've known since I was four or five texted laughing about me being home alone Saturday night, and I have completely blown up at him and he is now out of my life.  I hate this world.  I think it's pretty clear if I treated women like crap, I would have considerably better chance of women actually wanting me.  I'm off to get drunk.

Meursault

dear meursault, i'm so very sorry you're suffering so much.  i truly am.  i hope something positive comes down this road you're traveling, and quickly.  in the meantime, i'm here for you, hangin' right beside you.  take care of you.  no matter what you might think, you're worth it.

I'm so mad, why won't women in my life AT THE VERY LEAST tell me what is so bad about me they don't want me.  I stopped that sexual assault a couple of weeks ago.  I will never step up with that sort of thing again.  "Eff you, sister" and walk on by will be me response.  If im not even worth telling what I'm doing wrong. , then to * with it.  I will spend my time getting drunk and paying for prostitutes.  I wasn't the one that lost faith first.

Update:  I walked away fromthat and thought: "How many times have I done this?  12?  Way too low.  30?  way too high.  maybe 17 to 20 times.  Eff that.  I now am never coming back here. because women hate me so much and I will cheer them getting what they deserve.  I don't understand what makes me such a mionster that guys who sheat one their wives/girlfrinds. hit them, yell at them, laugh at them, are better than me.  I'm not even a weirdo.  I'm, reallly not.  Eff this.  I hope everyone suffers badly.  You all certainly made me.  And for no reason  And nobody would even tell me, so i could change.  Its a sick world and I hate it.  I am absolutely shattering.  And I hate it all. 

Sorry if anyone gets wound up about this.  I didn't mean it that way.  But I am absolutely done with being a lauhable piece of unlovable garbage.. being told I'm worth something, by women who are willing to have a life with, and kids with, guys who treat them like garbage.  I have held the faith that women in my life aren't just a bunch of masochists for 45 years.  That's over.  I hate everyone.


I wont be back.

Meursault.

I will be sad if you go.

Quotenobody would even tell me, so i could change

I will tell you the truth Meursault. It is unfair and unrealistic to lump all women together as masochists and suggest that you now hate an entire gender. I urge you to re-read this thread when you are not drinking as I'm certain you can't help but see that both Sansmagic and Three Roses tried very hard to connect with and help you.  In your last post you ignored that and are choosing to paint all women with one brush. I have edited your post to reflect the fact that the women you are talking about are those in your life who for one reason or another have disappointed you because heaping women together as worthy of your hate is not something I personally can let stand. 

I too hope you don't leave but if you do, please try and keep in mind that you did hear some truth here and you did receive some support and care from women in this forum. Also, not a good idea to post if you have been drinking, best to write out your rage and rejection in a private letter so that you acknowledge and vent what you are feeling, but don't alienate those who are trying to be supportive and caring toward you.

meursault, i don't know what else to say but that i'm sorry you hate us all.  we don't hate you, never have, never will.  if you decide not to come back, i wish you only the best.  care and concern flying your way.

I really like you, M. And I know you're panicking, all those months and years of not knowing what your legal status would be; I cannot imagine the sense of panic and rage and confusion you lived under for 6 years! 6 YEARS! I wouldn't have lasted 6 weeks. And now that's over, and you are beginning to decompress.

I used to have outbursts of utter rage. I thought of myself as having a bad temper, ready to lash out and in defense mode at the drop of the hat. Looking back it's plain to see that those were panic attacks. Stuck in a constant EF, my alarm bells were going off right and left. I wonder if that's what is happening with you right now.

I accept you, M, with all your flaws and beautiful parts mixed in together, just like the rest of us.

You know about hiking and wildlife. Think of the wildlife that you may encounter on a hike. When you come face to face with an animal, you must have that quiet confident core, dead center in the middle of your being, or you are inviting disaster; that peaceful confidence of knowing you're not there to hurt anyone and no one is going to attack you. It's the furthest thing from your mind, you're just there to spend time in nature and soak up the luscious goodness that whirls in the air around you when you're out there.

This is what I've been trying to communicate to you. You are the same person, out in nature or at a party with friends - but your belief regarding who you are changes. You must believe you are that same person alone or in a crowd, or people will sense it but not know what's wrong - you'll just feel sketch to them.

Ya gotta love yourself, brother. :hug:

Sometimes you need to hate everything to push on. Anger motivates self-protection. Maybe a break from here and all the reminders of your traumas are what you need.

I'm sure you'll come through this and see it as a temporary dark (maybe black) spell, and you'll remember that an entire gender can't be the same any more than a billion snowflakes can be.

I hope you can ease up on both youself and the drinking. More than one person here has lashed out after a serious drinking spell. Wouldn't want to lose your voice that way. You deserve better for yourself.

We care for you here and we'll be here if you decide to come back.  :hug:

I just want to say thank you for everything that Kizzie wrote. I saw this thread last night and got very upset, but couldn't get it together to respond in a coherent way.

I feel badly for you, meursault. It seems pretty clear that you were having an EF, and that the seeming rejection by your date was a horrible trigger for you. I think that is understandable considering what you shared about the way you were treated by the women in your family growing up. You deserved so much better than what you got at home. Even now, you deserve to be respected and loved and accepted.

But no individual woman owes you anything, and as an adult, you must come to grips with that. A lot of what you wrote here is extremely misogynistic. I understand that you were triggered and venting, but you also might give some thought about why it is that you feel it is okay for you to pay for the use of women's bodies for sex, or why you would feel content with the idea of hypothetically ignoring the abuse of women in the future just because you didn't get your needs met this time with one particular lady. Her reluctance to meet might have had nothing to do with you, but what if she picked up on all the anger that you seem to have at women in general, or your apparent sense of entitlement regarding women?

There is enormous collective wisdom here, Meursualt, and genuine caring.

Every reply to your post is full of different aspects of that wisdom, and also with love.

Don't know.  I'm still in a terrible place.  I think yeah, this is a really hard emotional flashback.  I think I am dissociating quite badly.  I can remember the last few days, but it doesn't seem like they exist.  My body feels like it is falling endlessly in space.

Anyhow.  I'm pretty ashamed of what I posted, and am sorry for what I said.  It really is very unfair, and it isn't something I even mean. 

I have just been in a non-stop wailing panic for days, and my mind has been like a pail of marbles in a paint shaker.

It was this desperate panicked neediness.  I can see pretty clearly what I was doing.  My Mom was a very politcal radical feminist growing up, and I think I just lost it with this sort of thinking:  The woman rejected me, and the agony and pain of it was overwhelming...  So I just started flailing around trying to do anything I could to change who I am so maybe I will be lovable.  So I basically utterly capitulated to my mom's messages thrashing around hoping that then I'd be lovable:  "Yes I am a monster.  I am subhuman garbage and deserve to die.  You are completely right about me.  I accept this.  I will be that way.  NOW CAN I BE LOVED?"  "I utterly accept defeat and will be whatever you tell me I am so I can become lovable."   I unfortunately articulated how desperately and completely I was willing to give up, and what that looked like from my home life to stop being attacked.

Pretty ugly, I guess.  Anyhow, I'm really sorry, and it was very unfair to all the people here who have been nothing but supportive.   

One comment  on Mourning Dove's post:  I don't think I am entitled to anything, nor owed anything.  That doesn't mean I think it's kind or fair to not articulate to someone why they are being rejected.  I think it's kind of cruel to just reject someone and leave them soul searching, over and over, why they are being rejected, completely in a vacuum.  I think that's extremely mean.  I also don't think I generally am very angry at women.  Sometimes, yeah, but not normally.  Normally I marvel at the women I meet.  I am excited to hear about their thoughts/opinions/lives, and generally find people (especially women) pretty awesome.  My therapist tells me I automatically assume women are right and I am wrong far too often.  It's of course unfair to assume women are all of some monolithic hive mind, but I think when you've spent almost half a century being rejected for anything other than friendship or sex, and never being told WHY you are being rejected, it's natural to assume it must be for the same reasons, and since it is so consistent, those reasons must be pretty obvious, but I'm just left with an endless sense of terror and brokenness, and no one thinks I'm worth enough to even be told what is so obvious.  As far as prostitution goes, I have no problem with it.  I think it should be legal.  I see no problem with someone who is willing to give comfort and affection for money. 

Anyhow, I was very unfair in what I posted.  I'm sorry.

Meursault

meursault, have you ever asked any of these women why they 'rejected' you?  the women who don't want to have an ongoing relationship with you are the only ones who know, but often someone isn't going to tell someone something like that unless, possibly, they're asked.  just a thought.  glad you came back.

Taking responsibility and apologizing  :applause:  and    :thumbup:  Meursault. 

I'm really glad you are back :hug:

One thing I disagree with, as someone who is exquisitely sensitive to rejection, is the idea that we are owed an explanation from those who choose to walk away, especially where there has been no long-term relationship.

Most people can't articulate their reasons anyway, but it is also threatening to feel that if we don't want to move closer, for any reason, we have to have a good reason for it. It can feel that the person who we don't want to be close to gets to determine whether that reason is good enough.  That creates a feeling of being manipulated, trapped or coerced. We don't need any reason at all.  We choose who we give our love to.  In most people, a feeling of being compelled, be it through fear,  power differentials or financial need, being pushed too far too fast, or pity, is a red flag to take a step back in itself.

I'm not suggesting you were being coercive, just that it can feel coercive.  I relate to feeling intensely lonely and sensitive to feeling rejected creating a vicious circle in which the desperation comunicates itself and sets-up the rejection I fear most.  People are frightened by intense need in others, and even if they aren't consciously aware of it, and the signs are subtle.   Just as importantly, people do take us at our own estimation, for better or worse.

Three Roses expressed the need to love ourselves so beautifully.  Being grounded by knowing our own deep value, makes us less vulnerable to the whimsy of others' feelings whether they be positive or negative.  Loving ourselves makes us less vulnerable to the machinations of users and abusers, who detect low self-worth the way a cheetah smells a fawn, as prey.

It's not fair that either of us didn't  get the love we deserved and learn our true value in the family relationships that are supposed to confer it.  We were betrayed.  There is plenty or betrayal and cruelty in this world, but we can't afford to project that betrayal onto others who had nothing to do with it.  No-one can ever "make up" the deficit.  Healthy relationships can help us heal over time, and healthy people tend to go slowly in getting to know and trust others.

We really do care, we see you, meursualt. :hug:

Yeah, Sanmagic, I have asked....

"I just don't see you that way."  [What way?  Then why did you go on a date with me?]
"I'm not really wanting to date." [Then why did you go on a date with me?]
"I just wanted sex." [At least that's straightforward.  'I only cared about your genitalia'.  Belittling, but at least it's honest.]
"I think you are awesome as a friend." [That doesn't say anything, and actually confuses me.  I also want you as a friend.  I want more though.]
"You're not my type."  [I can sort of see that.]
"You're super nice, and I would only hurt you."  [I'm okay with that.  Then hurt me.]
"You're one of my best friends and I love you.  I don't want to ruin that."  [And now it's ruined.]
"I would eat you alive."  [I'm good with that.]

I don't know.  There are a lot of "sort of" things, but very little that actually addresses things.  Mostly they just boil down to 'I don't feel that way about you.'  That doesn't really help me understand.  My best friend, J, tells me I look completely frozen when I'm around women iI find attractive, and she says she can walk into a place and tell in a half second glance that there is a woman I find attractive because I am frozen in terror.   She also says that she can only tell that because she knows me so well.   Most people tell me they are surprised when I tell them I have social anxiety.  So I don't know.

I have usually been able to compartmentalize that rejection and take it for what it is in most individual cases, but not always, and I am getting worse with it though.  Since I opened up with my therapist about growing up, I can't contain this very well.

I don't think I'm "owed" an explanation, but I think it is kind of vicious to not give one.  She told me she was glad I asked her out.  And then....  for no reason I can understand, I am rejected. I was being explicitly told how much she was liking our date, and then explicitly rejected.  I don't understand, and that is very crazy-making.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't being at all coercive.  I asked her if she wanted to go out again.  And she enthusiastically said yes, and then she was asking me what nights I was free, and we settled on a night we were both free, and she told me she was really glad she came out, and I told her me too, and I was really looking forward to seeing her again.  And she gave me a hug,  Then she texted me several times when she got home, talking.  Then she texted "we'll chat tomorrow" the day before date #2, Then said she'll take a raincheck because she's on her period, and then two days later I texted asking her if she was up for going out early in the week.  And she responded that she wasn't interested and she didn't consider it a date, and sorry if I misunderstood.  Despite the fact that during our initial banter, I said "Yeah, I guess I am.  Now I'm nervous, but yeah, I'm asking you on a date.'

Anyways.  I think this is going to take me quite a bit of time to deal with.  Probably several months.  I did untild damage in my personal life over the last couple of days.  I really doubt I have any friends anymore.  I think I must clearly be insane, because what was happening was not at all what I thought was happening.  I don't understand what she was doing in telling me that stuff...  She was actively letting me know she was interested and enjoying herself, and then BAM a complete change.

I'm also not sure about the "love yourself"  thing.  Why?  as far as I can tell most people don't love themselves and still have relationships.  If I need to do that before someone wants me, I'm screwed, and the quicker I die the better.

Meursault

Why love yourself?

Because I know that is the problem - the bottom line. I know it as much as I know the wind in my face, and I'm not someone who feels certain of much.

It doesn't matter what this maps to in the brain.  It doesn't matter how you find it in yourself. I don't care how sappy it sounds because I can out-cynical you any day of the week, Meursault. The problem is not how others feel about you, it's how you feel about yourself.

Why don't people love you?  Why don't you love yourself?  The why isn't as important as finding ways to change it, but the answers to those two questions are the same.

There is absloutely nothing wrong with you, nothing unloveable about you.  The problem is you not being able to experience yourself as loveable. Tearing yourself apart, analysing situations into oblivion - not the answer.

It's a hard, but its not imposssible and we're here for you, we see it.

why not love yourself?  what has not loving yourself gotten you thus far?  maybe it's time to change tactics for yourself, see if it works out any differently.  what could it hurt?  could it make things worse to love yourself?  and, maybe you need to start simply liking yourself.  the love will come later.  i don't see you even liking yourself which, i would guess, would make it more difficult for others to like you.

i think that's an interesting observation your friend made, that as soon as you find someone who is attractive to you, you become frozen.   have you ever thought about that phenomenon?  what does that mean to you?  what does it mean for you?  what, exactly, is freezing within you? 

people sense these vibes coming off others, maybe not at the time, but a day or two later.  i just came back from visiting my daughter, and was introduced to a friend of hers.  we spent some time together having breakfast, she was intelligent, funny, nice, upbeat, and we had a lovely time.  back in the motel room with my daughter, i told her that her friend was really nice, but i sensed something 'off' about her and wouldn't care to spend too much time around her.  my daughter and i discussed it and figured it out, but only after we'd all said that we'd get together again sometime.   it wouldn't really bother me if i didn't see her again.

it was nothing she said or did, but a vibe that didn't fit with mine.  an innate attitude (nothing harsh or overt) that i had known and didn't really like at a visceral level.  could i ever explain this to her?  no.  it wouldn't be understood on a logical level, and very possibly it would be taken personally and hurt her feelings.  i would never want to do that. 

so, maybe you want to try something different within yourself, since all your 'monster' beliefs haven't really helped you so far.  i'm not saying it would be easy, but it would be do-able, step by step.  different mind messages to yourself, positive self-talk, speaking to yourself in the mirror by saying only positive things about yourself - not about what you do but about who you are as a person, as a man.  your energy input into yourself in a positive way.  there may only be small things to start - i like you, you're kind (to your mirror image) - but they add up and they all count.

best too you with all this, meursault.  you deserve to have love in your life, including from yourself.

It's so confusing to me, because without getting that message, that I am unlovable to women, I generally DO like myself.  I think I'm pretty entertaining, and I've helped a lot of people, and I have a lot of skills and experiences that I am proud of.  I am usually pretty giving and helpful and even though I'm really afraid, I think I'm pretty brave.  I'm pretty intelligent and creative.  But then I get that message (whether I am misreading or not I guess I sometimes might be), and everything crumbles.  It's like this volcano of terror and a disintegration of any coherent sense of self.   I spent pretty much the whole of my 20s trying that CBT stuff.  I made lists and lists of positive things about myself.  Had sticky notes all over te place.  Went through a 3 month intensive social phobia group program a couple of times, and then saw the guy privately for a year after, as I worked on all that step by step stuff.  Making smaller goals, and practising them until I could function without too much panic and incompetence, and then building up to bigger goals.   It certainly had some usefulness, but it never addressed this core of things.  Positive affirmations haven't worked for me the way they seem to have for other people.  I don't know.  I diligently did that stuff daily for years.  It got me to a functional place, but there was no healing which had occurred.  That only came when I lost my virginity.  I still do some of the skills I got out of that on a daily basis.   I have spent years at a time plugging along, holding the faith that there is nothing wrong with me, and it's just faulty thinking, and trying to say positive things.  Then it eventually wears me down, and the messages have piled up from being unwanted that I am forced back to accepting it:  there is something fundamentally unlovable about me.

Sometimes, I regain my footing within a few days, and sometimes it has taken years.   I really think I have been unable to contain any of this reaction to rejection in the last two years.  I  opened up about growing up and started dealing with that in therapy, and it's like I'm permanently activated and horribly fragile.  All the legal stresses certainly made things worse.  My therapist seems to think this is all how this stuff heals, and I am going to have to go through all this stuff.  She says going through all this and processing it with her is how she can help.  She also encourages me to keep trying to meet women.  She has said something like "Relational trauma, especially developmental trauam, can only really be healed in a relationship with someone."  I THINK with this attachment based stuff, that maybe she just sits with me and lets me be vulnerable and open talking about it, as I learn that I am accepted until I actually feel like it is safe to be me around women and I won't be attacked.  I kind of think she has greater faith in my ability to handle it than I do, though.

I'm kind of thinking the confusion of what seemed to be going well, and then having that turn into some incomprehensible rejection, really triggered a lot of that traumatic stuff from when I was little.  Just terror and worthlessness and unpredictability and rejection.  And then in a panic, I was answering those messages.

I have no idea about what signals I send off, I suppose.  I have asked several female friends, and they laugh when I ask if I have a creep vibe.  Apparently I don't at all.   I have been told that I can come across as too eager.  But also told I am too aloof.  And my best friend has told me she thinks I seem easy to hurt, so maybe women don't want to get involved because they know they would feel like they're kicking a puppy (I'm guessing there).  She has been in my presence a few times when I've asked women out.  She said I come across as hopeful, a bit nervous, but fairly open and like I am fairly confident.

About the freezing around attractive women.  That's something that I try to figure out all the time.  It is very urgent and acute.  I've tried to work my way through understanding what's happening with this with both my therapist, and the EMDR therapist I saw last year.  They both see it like this:  I am frightened, as I normally am, but then arousal signals due to being attracted get all caught up in a terror response, and escalate.  I'm triggered by the very fact that they are women, and then there is also a fear of rejection, judgement and humiliation.  When I was younger, I shook like crazy, but now I just freeze right up so I don't show how afraid I am and risk ridicule.  Inside, my thoughts are just incoherent streaks of lightning, and my body feels like exploding as I keep myself from just running screaming.  Then I start to feel all distant and stunned and foggy.  My brain is gone.  I was telling the EMDR therapist about falling to pieces in a coffee shop, where a couple of girls were being all boisterous and laughing, and how every time they burst out laughing it hit me like a shovel to the face.  I actually jumped out of my seat at one point.  She said: "Do you see how attractive women are a trigger to you for your trauma history in exactly the same way a car backfiring is to a Vietnam vet?"  (Or close to that.)  That makes quite a bit of sense to me, especially how it's worse when the women are laughing.  As my Mom would be going off on me in a world filling rage, saying how I should be killed or sodomized or castrated or whatever, my sisters often danced around laughing at me and teasing me.  What did I do then?  I didn't back down, but I remained completely still, so it wouldn't escalate.  I see the parallel there....

I've known women who have had similar experiences with kind of specific things like that, like falling to pieces hearing guys horsing around and making sports cheer sounds.  I don't really understand what is happening yet with that stuff, it is still too incoherent for me to really remain present when it is happening, but I can sort of see how my therapist's interpretation makes some sense.  Both she, and my friend who is a therapist have pointed out how those bodily signals of arousal often get mixed up in panic.  Now I think it has happened so much, I have a terrible conditioned response.

Meursault

well, meursault, it makes sense to me.  i'd never really heard it explained that way, but i can see how that dynamic would occur without any conscious thought or recognition.  like the backfiring example.  the vet is immediately back in the war zone.  attractive women immediately send you back to that house full of malevolence and ridicule.  and, so you freeze so as not to have all those bricks of pain thrown at you again.  the same coping mechanism you relied on with your mom and sisters.

all in all, it sounds just like what your therapist says - this is part of the process, painful as it may be.  as you continue to work with her, you'll find the healthy coping strategies you need now as an adult man, of that i have no doubt.    it does take time, tho, and patience, including with yourself.  you'll get there, meursault.  the rough stuff will be rough, and it's probably exacerbated by all the trauma and stress you've been going thru for the past 6 yrs. as well. 

that's a lot to deal with, a lot to manage, a lot to sort through.  it'll happen.  i have faith.   big hug!

Thanks for being supportive.  I have definitely lost it.  I knew it would be tough after the trial ended.  I knew that losing 6-7 years of my life would hit me hard.  I am having a hard time making any sense of this all.  There is a hurricane going through my head and body.

I wrote the following yesterday.  There are a few swears, and a suicide attempt description, so I thought I better just link.  It actually has helped me to make things a bit more coherent.  I think it's fairly insightful, or maybe thought-provoking.  Don't know, it's very personal, and I tried to write it as fairly entertaining prose.  I sent it to a friend who was briefly a therapist of mine (several years ago), and he asked if he could send it on to a few friends, since he thought it articulated something kind of important.  It's my thoughts on the idea of having to love oneself before being lovable.  I wrote it out in very short time, and barely any editing has occurred, except correcting some punctuation, and getting a quote right.  I started writing it as a fictional character doing exposition, but that didn't last long....  I don't know, I think it sums up what I've tried to articulate for most of my life better than I ever have before.

https://wps999.blogspot.ca/2017/03/love-yourself.html

Meursault

just keep taking care of you as best you can, whichever way works best for you.  i've found writing to be extremely helpful myself.  keep going, meursault.  you'll get there.  big hug.

Oh, Meursault, I wish I had answers for you. I really, really do. You sincerely seem like a genuinely good and loveable man. To have such a visceral response as you go through is completely understandable. And also completely challenging in social situations. And on first dates (when women are likely to be chatty and giggly - especially if they like you).

To my uneducated, unprofessional view on this, you are sincerely lovable and worthy of love! It's difficult for a woman to get to know you, because much of what they would do during the 'getting to know you' phase would be triggering in the extreme. They would act in ways common to early friendship and dating - wanting to dance, laughing at anything even if you didn't MEAN to be funny. Add the confusing part of being attracted, then immediately repelled, and you've got one understandably confused man! Because it isn't the man being repelled, it's the cPTSD dragging your mind away while YOU are still attracted to the source of the trigger!

Imagine it like this - the backfire wasn't from a random car out on the street - it was from the motorcycle you used to love riding. Now, every time you crank the bike, BANG and you're triggered. You know you can just avoid the bike, but that's not what you want out of life. So, you think - maybe if I just switch bikes. Sell the old one, get a new one and crank it up. Bang. Not as big as before, but you're now hyper-sensitive to that sound, and you're still triggered. You LOVE riding motorcycles, so it's hard to give up. One rides past with loud pipes and even THAT triggers you - because you're longing, wanting AND feeling completely denied something you love. The more you feel denied, the worse you feel when you ARE denied by being triggered.

This may seem really strange, but it's a possible way to build the relationship part WITHOUT the triggering part while getting to know a lady and allowing her to get to know you.... internet dating. Don't laugh too hard. I met my husband through internet dating. It worked for us because I could get to know him some (I'd been pretty burned before and was very cautious- ditto for him) before committing to a face-to-face meeting.

When we felt safe enough after chatting via text, we exchanged phone numbers. When we felt safe enough after talking on the phone, we met face-to-face. THEN we started dating. That may give you a chance to explain that hearing laughter CAN make you nervous - to call you back if she notices you drift off - that it isn't personal at ALL. Without getting into the details, still giving her a heads-up that these things can happen, so she won't be off-put by it.

I do know hubby revealed that he doesn't drive and why pretty early on, because he'd learned that many women ran away or just disappeared when that was revealed. He figured, better to let her run early than to invest in caring about her, only to lose her with that fact. I revealed why I'm pretty stand-offish when first meeting people - because I figured better to let him know now than him think I'm a cold fish later, when I really DO care.

Given the challenges you face, that may be an option. Which you may have already tried. I don't know. What I do know is that all your posts point to you being a very considerate, caring, fun-loving fellow whose cPTSD is damaging your quality of life now. I do wish cyber-hugs could help you feel the respect and caring I feel for you!  :hug: Even more, I wish I could give you an answer that would work.

Wife #2:
I cried a bit reading that.  I'm so utterly demoralized.   It's strange, though, how my feeling of safety and willingness to be vulnerable becomes so much stronger after a woman has sex with me.  I sort of have a "Well, if she had sex with me, she must accept and like me.  She must want ME"  I am luckily not so deluded I rationally believe that, but emotionally it's there.  Same with female friends.  Once I know they are for sure lesbians, or in committed relationships or whatever, I am able to feel safe around them, and then, in either of those cases, I really LOVE those same things that trigger me.  It is a spike of excitement and enjoyment of their femininity rather than terror when I hear them laugh.  I don't really understand it,  but in a way, since they won't want me sexually, they aren't going to do something that hurts me.

To strain the motorcycle analogy:  once I realize the sound is coming from a motorcycle that is on a road I can't reach, or is on the road of ME where it has shown it won't wreck the pavement, or lose control, I can enjoy the sound. 

I have met a couple of women via chatting online, and tend to do pretty well conversationally, but the first meeting is still full of terror.  I met a woman who posted she wanted to meet new people in my city last October (IIRC) and we chatted for a couple of weeks (a lot) before we tried to meet.  She cancelled on me three times, and then finally showed up.  I felt no rejection there.  When we finally mt, we hit it off pretty good.  Neither of us are interested in each other romantically, though.  She's the one I posted quite a while ago that I had a date (we both knew it was a get to know you sort of date and not necessarily a date date) with, and at the end, she got on the bus, and five minutes later texted me "Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity."  She and I are still friends.  We text several times a week.  I had her over and cooked her supper last week.  But it wasn't a date with necessarily romantic intentions, and when neither of us seemed interested, we just became friends.

I had also tried a dating site.  I was only able to meet one woman that way, and when we had our date, she was very confrontational and hostile, and I could tell she could read my nervousness and it annoyed her.  What I thought was humorous sarcastic banter from her when we were messaging, was genuine disdain for the world.  It was a very clunky date.  I also felt like there was no reprieve from being rejected, since my profile was putting me "out there" 24 hours a day, seven days a week.  IRL, at least I can somewhat feel I'm not actually being rejected when I stay at home and hide.  I've asked a couple of female friends help me write my profile, since I wasn't getting the responses I expected.  I'm definitely willing to try that again, though.  I just closed that account in the fall.

I do think there is some fine line with letting the women somehow know it is not them, but just my own weird reactions when I get too nervous or dissociative, while somehow also not coming across as completely damaged, too.

I'm feeling so damaged.  I saw my therapist today, and she, as always, was very supportive and accepting of me.  I had sent her an email over the weekend asking her to let the police know I was dead in my house though.  And later rescinded it.  I feel like such garbage.

Telling her about what happened with that woman, I recounted the details, and was bawling hysterically.  I had this wild, shaking, high pitched desperate voice, and was saying over and over "I don't understand anything!  I can't make sense of anything!!!  What is happening?  What happened?  Why did she change so much?  I'm crazy and nothing makes any sense!  HElp, I don't understand what is happening!"

Tears were actually shooting from my eyes.  Wow, was I shaking.  When I told her all the details, she helped me understand a little, I think.  The woman is in an intensive daily mental health program, and has BPD, which doesn't mean anything in and of itself, but my therapist made me see that maybe she just got scared of getting closer, or was just herself overwhelmed by the idea of dating.  She reassured me that all the things the woman said were "extremely strong" messages that she liked me and wanted to see more of me, and then, to save face or feel justified in retreating, blamed me by telling me she didn't think of it as a date, even though that was explicitly said.  My therapist reassured me how all the things I was told actually meant what I thought, and I wasn't just so crazy I didn't understand anything and the world hadn't stopped making sense.  I had shown the texting exchange the date and I had after the date to my best friend, and she said:  "You come across as pretty eager, but there's nothing in there that's weird or anything.  And she seems to be enjoying the conversation."  My therapist suggested maybe she felt too exposed by the fact that I was interested in her, and pushed me away so she didn't have to risk closeness.  Who knows, I guess.

I was holding my face and bawling and choked out "Do you see me as so bad I deserve this?!?"  and my therapist looked really gentle and sad and caring.

God, do I feel fragile how easily I was hurt by that woman.  And wow, was I interested. I don't think I've dated a woman in ten years to whom I felt such a strong sense of attraction and comfort with.  I lived with a girlfriend for a year a couple of years ago, and I was never as excited to hear what she had to say as this woman.  Then my therapist and I talked how I need to add some other therapist or group or something, since she is unable to give more than she does.  So, she is going to look around and talk to colleagues.  Part of me is scared that she is just sick of me and this is how she is getting rid of me, and of course I would be too powerless to do anything so she would stay.  But I think she means what she said.  I am almost positive. 

I asked her if she has seen problems like mine before.  And if I was the most damaged client she has ever had.  She said she has seen this sort of thing before, but never to this degree.  She said the people who have gone through all that I've gone through are usually heavily medicated, and institutionalized regularly.  She said she's never seen a client who works as hard as I do, or who goes as deeply into this stuff as I do.  It was an extremely heavy session.  I was bawling a lot.

She gave me a big long hug at the end and kind of rubbed my head and told me I was a good man, and one of the strongest and most loving people she has met.

I am exhausted.  I feel like I can start to return to the world from this Jacob's Ladder nightmare I've been in for a week.  She liked what I wrote that I linked above.

Anyways:
Downsideup:  I don't think that way.  I don't want to be rescued or saved or coddled.  I want to be strong and find and earn someone's love.  I don't want a prize, I want a shared giving.  If it is saving, I ant it to be mutual.  Anything else is me being powerless, and that isn't what I want.  I want love very badly, and I think a lot of this developmental trauma makes me feel that need very acutely.  And I know no-one here can or will give me the love I want.  I'm not here for that reason.  I'm here because I feel so alone with all this, and people here seem nice, and a lot of you have gone through similar hells, and have some understanding of your own with this stuff that when I speak I don't feel so completely alien and alone and broken.  That I am understood.  And that maybe other people can see some bits in my stuff that they can use or apply or find insight into their own stuff with.

Arg.  I'm crying. Lol.

Meursault

:hug:

A cyber "hold you while you cry" hug. :)

dear meursault,  i think your therapist has a good idea which has nothing to do with wanting to be rid of you or being frustrated by you.  i think she is looking at you beginning to attend a group as an adjunct to the therapy she is doing with you.  especially if it is a male/female group, you will be able to interact with others, get feedback, be supported, and show some vulnerability in a safe space.  such group work can be very helpful and healing, and might give you quality feedback for your questions and insecurities.  it would be a community, each helping the other, to promote healing.  that's my take on that suggestion.  on the other hand, she may have something different in mind that i'm not aware of.  but i do believe it's something she's thinking of to help you in a way that she's not able as one person.

you are wounded, meursault, nothing more, and the wounds are raw from all the stress you've recently gone through.  there is nothing intrinsically wrong with you from what i know of you.   women have their own issues, too, and sometimes those speak louder than words.

in the meantime, as much as we can be, we are here for you.  the earth mother in me is wrapping you up in her voluminous skirts, embracing the pain that is you right now.  be as kind to yourself as possible.  you are like a frightened baby bird, fragile but with that incredibly strong will to survive this.  you will make it.  eventually you will fly.

I woke this morning to your post and the following message from someone from elsewhere who read my "Love Yourself?" post...

Quote
My experience, love is a happy accident that happens to 2 people who have some things in common, especially values. You can't make it happen, just be open to it. It seems to start with friendship. It is rare, but is there such a thing as too many friends? When it happens, both see the best in each other, and bring it out. Loving yourself doesn't seem to matter, but giving and positivity does. There is mutual respect and space. You don't have to be perfect, and PTSD is O K, as long as you do your best to recover and try not to hurt the other person. Probably best not to have both seriously ill. Helps if other person wants to understand. Let whatever is good happen, and be patient

I just started bawling, but maybe in a good way, not sure, from both of them.  Your comment made me feel very fragile bu somewhat safe.  His evoked the thought:  "YEs!  Exactly!  Love isn't self-centred enough to require self-love.  It is GIVING!"  Then I thought about how when I was a little boy and trying to give my love to my mom, and how she never wanted it or had any for me.  ANd it's the same now.  I'm wanting to give my love, but no one wants it.  And it's the same now as then: I'm being told there is something intrinsic yet ineffable about me that needs to be different to be loved.  But it didn't make sense then, and it continues to overwhelm me with confusion.  Why?  Can't you see me?  I think I'm lovable?  Now I'm completely bawling....

Now I have to head out to my bi-annual teeth cleaning and sit in a chair while the extremely attractive dental tech pushes against me and talks in chipper enthusiasm.  I have been too scared to even call and re-schedule.  I hope this isn't a humiliating disaster!

Meursault

Add me into this hug! You really are such a beautiful soul, Meursault. I suspect that when you do find the love you deserve, and you DO deserve deep, mutual, complete love, it will be a love story for the ages.

And bring a magazine to the exam room - just in case. Something boring like Engineering Today. If all else fails, place it strategically and 'leave' it there. I'm literally thinking of what I would recommend to my son. We females DO have an easier time with covering.

Thanks for the idea, Wife #2!  It took me a few seconds to understand what you were meaning, but I just got it.  I am not worried about arousal,  but panic attacks.  I have a bit of a smile about that misunderstanding!!!  Turns out, I cancelled though.  My furnace just blew up.  I went to leave, and could hear weird sounds, so I have to deal with that....

Meursault

Glad I could make you smile!

Dang, drab-it about the furnace though. Hoping that is an easy fix.

sucks about the furnace.  i, too, hope it's an easy fix. 

still earth-mother hugging!

Despite what a basket case I become with rejection and loneliness from women, I think I am otherwise pretty effective in life.  I traced the problem, took a bunch of stuff apart.  Called around for the parts I needed.  Discovered that places won't sell those parts to the general public.  Called HVAC guy I know from my small town and told him what was broken and what part I needed.  He called a supply place in the city and told them to bill him, and gave my name saying I'd be in to pick it up for him.  I have a furnace again.  I figure it would have cost me $500 if I had to get someone to come in and do it.  Instead, it was $80 and I'll have to buy that guy lunch sometime.

Phew. 

Just got settled into a warming house again.  That was potentially much worse!  Silver-lining?  I had a genuine reason for cancelling the teeth cleaning and potentially humiliating myself with crying or panic attacks.  I really don't think I could have handled that today.  Cute receptionist woman in the heating distributor place had me shaky and my brain was incapable of thought.

I think today will be a day of self care now.  Journaling and stuff.  Maybe go get chocolate or something and hide from the world.

Meursault

Some days need to be like that. It's great when you can just let it be.

Great news on the furnace! Whew, indeed.

I sure hope my therapist isn't trying to get rid of me.  I had at least sort of held myself together for most of my life, except a couple of years in my early twenties when this all hit me that "women universally think I'm unlovable" seemed indisputable from experience, and then after the end of my relationship of 6 years with a girlfriend.  The therapist I saw right before the good therapist (who was good therapist's boss), I saw for three years, and never trusted her enough to tell about my Mom or growing up.  Every week for three years, I should have realized she wasn't someone I could trust.  Building trust with good therapist over 6 months, I finally felt I could trust her enough and started to tell her about it.  I said to myself for months as I told her in dribs and drabs "I finally found someone who can help.  I am either going to deal with this and get better, or deal with it and it will kill me.  I'm not backing off from this."

I've always known where this came from, but it was always "shut up, I don't want to hear about your mother", "I'm sure she loves you", "you're just depressed", "take pills.", "You need to just love yourself", "take CBT", "women won't be interested if they can see it's important to you", "everybody is single sometimes"....... 

But I have really been a wreck pretty much non-stop since I opened up to her.  I've not been able to feel better or contain myself very well.  Granted, with this legal *, that was an added difficulty, but I don't think this would have been much easier without it.  I jus lost OVER SIX YEARS OF MY LIFE unable to find any love because of that.  I was still youngish when that happened, now I am thoroughly middle aged.  The window to meet women of my age range who would be willing to have a kid with me has disappeared.  Arg.  It feels so desperately urgent now.  I can't go more than a few minutes without this spiralling.

Anyhow.  I'm pretty worried about my therapist.  I hope she isn't wanting to get rid of me.  I think you're right Sanmagic.  I am going to trust her, and suspend judgement on whether she is getting rid of me.  She really does seem to care and I hope she is in this with me for the long haul.  Scares the bejeezus out of me, though.

Anyhow, this whole idea of tkaing care of myself and just hiding from the world has already gone out the window.  My brain and body are just screaming at me how much of an emergency it is to get out and go find what I need.  My brain is already like a half-full jar of marbles being violently shaken.

I can't believe how badly I've fallen apart.

Sigh, anyhow, have a good day everyone.  I think I am going to need hospitalization yet today.  It's completely counter productive, and actually usually deleterious, but I don't think I have any options.

Meursault

my heart is with you, meursault, whatever the day brings.  like your therapist told you, the people she's seen in as rough a shape as you are sedated.  however, maybe some type of gentler meds might be helpful for awhile to get you through this * you're experiencing.  has your therapist suggested this at all?   just a thought. 

in the meantime, i'm glad the furnace got fixed.  i think the last 6 yrs. of your life have a lot to do with how you're struggling now.  my personal opinion.  that was overwhelming all by itself, and when placed on top of your other traumas, it could be nearly too much to bear, which might be what you're experiencing now.  i sincerely hope you can find the help you need to make this easier for you.  this is so much for any one person to be dealing with.   sending affection and care your way.

I'm pretty sure I have virtually no friends any more too.  No one ever calls, it seems.  When my Dad died, I had probably well over a hundred people tell me they would gladly go to court if I needed a character witness.  Now I am just a pariah.  When I drank, people called all the time.

Anyhow, I can't believe how badly I destabilized.  I was struggling for quite a while, but bouncing back.  That incomprehensible way things went with that woman has completely torn my feet from under me.  I have no foundation.

Anyhow.  Not sure about medication.  They are only interested in giving SSRIs (I've given almost all of them an honest try, but they are terrible for many reasons).  I don't think I could really access my emotions for several years after Effexor for 2 years.  They almost "cauterize" my emotional system, and stopping them is a years long process of reconnecting.  Either that or they offer Risperdal or Seroquel.  I am quite against both of them.  I tried Seroquel, but it just made me numb and fat and impotent.  Still, it might end up there pretty quickly.

I'm going to call the crisis line when it gets worse.  But already it's like reality is strobing and my muscles are terror, made of electrified wood.  My face feels splashed with vinegar or something.

I think that the decompression from the years of the legal stuff is a huge factor right now, but it's mostly hitting me how I've lost so many years and maybe any chance of ever finding a partner and having kids.  Cried a bit about my Dad this morning, too.  I haven't really felt any grief over all that I think.  It all just tunnelled into the trauma of that night and the ongoing threat of jail and abuse and being assaulted and caged.

Anyhow.  I am gritting my teeth with all this ATM.  I will prevail eventually, I hope, and find a more positive place.

Meursault

yes you will, of that i have no doubt.  and, it sounds like you are in the middle of a grieving process of immense proportions.  grieving will make us have a difficult time dealing with other issues, too.

i hear what you're saying about the meds.  sorry nothing's worked for you.  still by your side, meursault, no matter what.  you matter and i care about you.  i wish i could do more.

I'm also going to start adding my poetry, comics, drawings, maybe music etc. to a blog page.  I'm just doing it so I'll slowly have a place with all my artistic stuff all in one place....

It's here: http://wps999.blogspot.ca/ (http://wps999.blogspot.ca/) if anyone's interested...

Meursault

Anyhow, I wrote a bunch last night and that kept me in all right shape.  Some swearing, some sexuality, and some suicide/self-harm talk in it, but if anyone is interested:

http://wps999.blogspot.ca/2017/03/and-we-got-to-get-ourselves-back-to.html

It's about when I lost my virginity, but isn't overly graphic, I don't think, nor is it negative, for the most part.  I'm actually super happy with the QUALITY of the last couple of things I've written.

Meursault

since i love writing, i'm really glad to see that you're doing this, meursault.  it's a pretty nifty project, to my mind.  yay for you!

I was just reading through some of this thread and I just noticed something....  Wife #2, in Reply #35, you mentioned how you revealed early why you are stand-offish.   

I don't know, it seems like people are pretty uncharitable if they can't accept that.  I have met plenty of women who are stand-offish, and I assume they have a good reason.  Maybe some terrible experiences with men, or related trauma, or the like.  I don't take it personally, unless it is also hostile.  Mixed messages are another thing entirely, though.  I kind of assumed that everybody did that.  Maybe that's not true.  And maybe it's even less true that women are forgiving of that in men, since culturally, there is a lot more awareness of the realities of mistreatment of women.  Maybe those of us who have really faced a bunch of trauma that tend to accept that possibility in others more.  Hmm..  I don't know, just thinking.  Don't even know what I mean there, actually....

My yoga studio was closed for a week to re-do the floors, and opened a couple of days ago.  I am going to try to go in a while.  It was day three without yoga that I fell to pieces over that woman, I think.  Maybe that has exacerbated things with me.

Meursault

Note to self:  do yoga every day.

Right now is the first time I'm not shaking in a week.  And I don't feel like there is this hundred pound core of lava stretching from my groin to my throat turning rapidly in on itself.  Yoga was packed.  It's hot yoga too, so it was extra hot.  There were 50 people, and I'd say 4 guys.  I think it actually does me a lot of good beyond the normal value of yoga.  I get to practice breathing and connecting with my body around a bunch of ridiculously good looking women in tight clothes.  Plus, sort of exposure and proof of being "safe" around attractive women.

Anyhow...

Meursault

sounds like a good 'note to self', meursault.  keep it up - it may be helping you on many levels. 

A friend of mine, who is the wife of a guy who was my roommate 22 years ago, messaged me a few weeks ago that she knew I'd be going through some hard times, and there are people who cared.  And that I should rely on them if I need.  I just texted her asking her if she wanted to get a coffee today.  She said absolutely, so I'm off to meet her. 

I kinda feel like crying.  My therapist told me this week that she has never had a client work as hard as I do to deal with all this stuff, but I'm feeling like a bit of a failure, like I've maybe had all these people who care, and I haven't been trying hard enough to deserve it.  Same with all the people here.

Anyways, just wanted to say that it hit me how much I appreciate all the support I've gotten from all of you here.

What song popped into my head?
Joey by Concrete Blonde

I'm going to go listen to it before I go meet her....

Meursault

 :hug:

you deserve it just by being you.  we all do.  it's what helps us keep moving.  big hug!

My therapist updated me via email today that she has set up a time to consult with a colleague about me.  Some guy she used to work with.  I guess his approach is narrative therapy, which has always seemed positive to me.  Anyhow, I am not really comfortable with a male therapist.  I'm not really sure why.  I find it impossible to believe them, and feel like they are just laughing at me because women would love them but not me.  I'm half a mind to tell her don't bother, but I will buckle down and give it an honest try if that's the way it goes.  The guy will have to have a very gentle, non-judgemental, and validating manner to him for it to have a chance.

I went to a "mood disorders" drop in group thing they have in my city today.  I went once last summer, and it was terrible then.  The people were all completely sold on BEING their diagnosis, and had all given up on anything in life.  I don't want that and didn't think it would be good, so I didn't go back.   Felt the need to connect today, so I went, and it was pretty good.  The woman running it was just a volunteer with some minimal training and a history of depression and anxiety.  There were two other women, and a guy.  We had a great time talking for two hours.  It was minimally structured.  Everyone was supportive and helpful, but no one really "Gave advice", either.  Some observations, and suggestions of what we did etc.

One woman, in her mid thirties, was talking about a death that happened when she was 12, and she was crying and saying it was her fault (it totally wasn't) and how she has been bothered by that daily since.  The woman running it sort of said how she should look for what may help her "let go", and the woman was resistant.  I mentioned how I really get a lot from inner child stuff, and what might work for me in that would be not so much to forgive myself, or give myself permission to get over it, but to at least allow the little boy (or little girl, in her case) to let go of it, because she was a little girl, and couldn't possibly be expected to carry that.  The woman started crying and I felt terrible for a second, until she said she had never thought of that, and it resonated with her, and that's finally something that makes some sense about it all for her. 

I liked all the people, and felt comfortable there.  I'm so used to talking about this stuff with professionals, so I feel like I'm just broken and not a man in comparison, or places like here, where I sort of assume everyone has their things together better than I do, and understands what's going on better than me.  I felt EQUAL to people today.  And I think they all got something out of what I was saying, especially that woman.

I also realized that I have been a lot less passive in my treatment than a lot of people are.  Most of them, except the woman running it, only had a psychiatrist who saw them a couple of times a year, and didn't really even understand that there were any other options.   I was pretty glad to be able to pass on some information that seemed promising.  I mentioned the free acupuncture I go to, and I sort of knew what she wanted to know when one woman was asking.  I knew she wanted to know HOW to access it.  just being told where and when and that it's drop in and you can just show up doesn't really tell people with bad anxiety how to do it, I think.  I know it wouldn't for me.  So I sort of explained my first time...  walked into building, asked where acupuncture was at desk, went there, sign said to wait outside, when door opened, just followed others in, said I've never been before etc, and what sorts of reactions I was getting from staff along the way.  The woman seemed pretty eager to try it. 

I also used to "Foster parent" cats with new born kittens from the humane society.  I'd get a cat with a couple of day old litter of kittens.  Keep them two months or whatever until they were large enough to be adopted, and then get a new litter.  I did that for quite a while.  I was able to explain the process of going about tthat, and what other volunteer things they had to work with animals.  The guy seemed especially interested, and asked a lot of questions.

Anyhow.  I feel pretty good about today.  I felt like I was equal, and was pretty helpful, too.  That felt awesome.  I think I need to volunteer some place.  I haven't done anything like that since my Dad died.

Anyhow, we all talked about the different artistic things we did, and the younger woman asked me to bring in my poetry and read some and said if I had the guts to, she would read hers too.

Meursault

Smiles for miles and even a small happy tear! That is wonderful news, Meursault!

 :cheer:

This post trial insanity has abated for a bit, I think.  It really kicked off after stopping that attack, I think.  Just occurred to me this morning, I wonder if the fact iI was having to deal with cops sort of sent my mind a bit out of control.  Then I've been kind of worried about how crazy did I appear, when the guy very hastily and in fear threw his knife down at my feet when I stepped toward him?  Then I had that date, which was probably the happiest night I've had since I was up north in the wilderness last year.  I never remember dreams.  I can literally go a decade without remembering any.  Yet after that date with that woman, I remembered my dreams every night until she then rejected me.  Then I mentally fractured and lashed out on the forum here, and I still feel pretty bad about that.   And I crossed a boundary with my therapist by emailing her outside of our agreed upon time, and although I let her know I realize it was a mistake, I'm worried she secretly hates me now.

But then things keep plugging along, I guess.  I feel really good about that drop-in group I went to on Monday.  And I've been going to yoga every day. 

Then yesterday, I went to the acupuncture thing I do.  There were about ten people there, when normally there are six at most.  I had an INTENSE time.  I was watching myself experiencing all the sort of core terror and pain whipping around wildly in me.  It was like a waking dream, and I came back to normal awareness a few times to discover I was shaking badly, and at one point both legs were completely cramped up from my feet all the way to the tops of my thighs.  because I was flexing the muscles so much.  Then, in the floating rolling dream where I was skimming along all that fear and stuff, I had this vivid image of an attractive woman pop in my head, and I spent the rest of the acupuncture session exploring the trauma based self-annihilation and terror and the attractive/arousal sensations, and how they are so similar, and how quickly the attraction flips into the fear.  I felt like I was understanding how my body and mind react with this stuff.  I think what I was doing was "titration", but I'm not sure.

At the end the woman came up to me and asked if I was okay.  She looked pretty concerned.  I said "That was intense."  She said "Good intense or bad intense?"  I said "Hard intense."  Then I noticed that a woman there was crying.  And then this young guy was holding his head and rocking.  And then the woman running it came to this 50 year old native guy to take out the needles, and he was crying, too.  The woman said "Wow, there's a lot of chi in the room today." 

I got home and did a bunch of work on my house for the rest of the day.  Finished all the tiling, did some flooring, got my kitchen sink in and working.

I'm not sure what happened there.  It was brutal, but it seemed important.  I don't know, I feel like my system has finally been "soothed" from this terrible flashback state.  Still not feeling great, but like I have been de-activated enough to experience things like it isn't a war zone.  I'm pretty weirded out by that.

I hope this slow return, yo-yoing back and forth until I find some new normal, just passed the most extreme part, because I'm bound to cause a lot of damage in my life if it gets more extreme than the last few of weeks.  I knew the post-trial times would be unstable, but I really didn't predict this at all.

Meursault

who really could predict it, meursault?  no one i know.

i just give you so much credit for continuing to explore all this, with such determination and courage.  bravo to you.  i hope you're finding a bit of relief now after what actually sounded brutal.  as in any of this, there will be ups and downs, for all of us.  keep taking care of you.  you're worth it.  big hug!

Thanks sanmagic...  amd like that, it all crashes down. I hate this  all.  So, my mom suddenly comes in to go get lunch, and then my therapist calls and cancels our session for tomorrow.  I am now in a tizzy again.  The mom thing is always destructive, but after my therapist old me about wanting to enlist another therapist and how most people with my level of trauma are heavily medicated, then cancelling ...she's only ever cancelled once before...  I just feel like this is the death knell of my most important relationship and the only person I really trust enough to "show me" to.

I'll calm down, but I went from reasonably relaxed to shaking like a leaf.  My thinking is incoherent.  It's a terrible time to cancel right after what was essentially a relationship rupture with her.  Damned.  I can logically see it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but I've gone through my life willing to suspend that worry almost every time and it always turns out badly.

Anyhow, ill calm down.  I feel so oooooo defeated though.
Meursault

i hate that feeling.   i know you'll pull through, and i personally don't think your t 'wants' to get rid of you.  it sounds like she's thinking of what's best for you in your situation.  that doesn't mean she's leaving, tho.  i know you've built quite a rapport in your relationship with her.  standing beside you.  big hug.

I had kind of wanted to do this for a lot of years.  Fifteen years ago when I was living with a girlfriend, she and I did yoga every day, and she was planning on becoming a yoga instructor.  I kind of imagined doing that too.  And since my Dad died, and I couldn't farm any more, I have not really known what to do job wise, but I figured it would be good to just completely try something else.

Anyhow, just to keep at all level, I've been doing yoga everyday for the last week or so.  I have told myself that I'm going to have to do it every day, at least for a while, to take care of myself.   So, on FB a couple of days ago, what pops up?  A yoga teacher training program thing.  This trainer is coming to my city and is offering the basic certification for being a trainer.  It's 5 days a week for ten hours a day for a month.  It's not cheap, but really, I'm thinking this is a good thing to do.  At the very least, I will immerse myself in yoga for a solid month with no break from it, which can't hurt, and at the end, even if it's never used, I will have something out of it:  the accreditation.

I emailed and asked a few questions and they got back to me.  Previous students seem to have good reviews.  I asked the instructor at today's yoga class, and she said it sounded like a good program.  And then I messaged an old acquaintance who is a yoga instructor.  (I tried to date her about ten years ago, and am only FB friends).  She thinks it's a good idea, too.

So, I am almost positive I'm going to just say "here's hoping!" and jump in.  Feeling a bit uncertain about it, though.  The money.....  It's not terrible in cost, but it's enough.  I will also have to miss therapy for a month, which MAY be bad mentally.  It MAY be good, though, too, taking a break from her for a little, and what I'd save in not paying for therapy basically lowers the cost of the yoga training by 20%.

Who knows if I'd ever be able to get a job in it, but it occurred to me, I could do something like volunteer to have a free weekly yoga class at places like that mood disorders place I went to last week for that group.  Or maybe old folks homes or whatever.  Even if I couldn't get a job in it, maybe I could volunteer teaching instead.  And maybe that would eventually mutate into something more solid....

I don't know.  I think I'm going to do it, but I'm kind of afraid of failing.... Not failing the class, but basically wasting money and trying something that won't help at all, and will just illustrate I am no good.  I don't know.

Anyhow, I think I kind of need to say this out loud somewhere, so I'm doing it here!

Meursault

I think that sounds like a great idea! You'd be immersed in a healthy atmosphere where self-care is valued, plus have an accreditation at the end. You most definitely could teach, or donate your time. I think you'd make a very good teacher!

hey, meursault,

i'm of the notion that when we attempt something that can be positive in our lives, we can learn from it (no matter how far we take it) and therefore can never fail at it.  we've added something beneficial - how can that be failure? 

you've spoken so much about yoga, how much you like it, how much it helps you, how much you enjoy participating in the classes.  seeking accreditation seems like a natural next step to me.   methinks - go for it!  i'll be anticipating hearing, if you do actually decide to do it, how it goes.  yoga immersion.  for you, it sounds like a wonderful fit. 

Well, I emailed the woman running the training and asked for where I send the registration cheque.  I ordered the books from Amazon.  I was at yoga at 6 this morning, and then went back for a meditation thing this after noon.  The instructor I talked to yesterday was running the meditation thing.  It's a big studio, and I didn't really think anyone even really recognized me, but I walked in and she said she checked out the training place and had clearly gone through the whole site.  She said it looked really good, and they looked to cover everything one would want for basic training stuff.  She said it looked better than most initial instructor training programs.

Gulp.  Well, I'm doing it.  I'm going to have to change my Kayaktrip somewhat this summer.  I was going to start in Yellowknife in Canada, and travel about 1100 miles.  I'm changing where I go somewhat and only going to have a 600 mile trip, far less in the actual tundra than I intended.  I'll save $700 bucks or so on the difference in transportation, plus what I save in therapy, it will basically be the equivalent of doing what I was doing anyhow, and getting the yoga training for a little over half price.

Gulp.  I'm doing it. 

I got invited to go to a poetry reading tomorrow where I can read my poetry.  The woman who runs it is a friend who manages some low grade community theatre group.  It sounds a lot more accepting and egalitarian than that poetry slam, but I'm uncertain if I can even hack that rejection if it goes poorly.

I've spent the last two weeks or so just assuming all my friends have abandoned me, but I guess I'm wrong.  My friend A. (whom I would totally love to date, but who is exactly the kind of woman who would eat me alive) stopped by yesterday.   She had her lunch here, as she is a postal carrier, and I'm on her route.  Had a good hour with her.  I really like her, but she is very domineering and could steamroll over me effortlessly.  She has been texting today which has me feeling pretty good. 

Meursault

I'm really happy for you Meursault.

First, though probably not that important to you, going bush,, as we way around here, sounds brilliant.  (maybe that should be going tundra). Looking back it's probably what I should have done when my own time of 'decompression' sent me into a tail-spin.  There's something about shaking it out, getting into the wild, and at the same time into your own body - moving into different landscapes.  Brilliant!

And congratulations re leaping right in with your yoga course!  I can't say I envy that because I'm completely un-agile and always have been, but I admire your boldness and decisiveness.  I think you'll be great.

And a poetry-reading - you're a legend! :worship:.

Thanks, Radical!

I've been going on these solo kayak/canoe trips since 2003, IIRC.  My longest one so far is 42 days.  Most years, I see no one.  I am way too remote for that.  I missed a couple of years because of my legal stuff, they added a curfew, and there were a couple of years I couldn't get the courts permission to do it.  The last two years of being under bail conditions I went to court, with therapist letters saying it's psychologically beneficial (duh!), but the last two years the trips didn't turn out (the only ones since 2003!).  In 2015, the court set a window of time I had to check in with the police on an Indian Reserve, but I got winded in on Great Slave Lake for many days, and turned around rather than breaching my bail conditions.  Then last year, I had that bear encounter, which kiboshed things.

I'm still just holding on, though.  I just caught a romantic commercial on TV and there was this dreamy sequence of the guy picking up this smiling cute woman, and it made me just want to jump off a ledge....  Just that,  a few minutes ago, and I am all shaky, and I'd rather be dead than endure another day of this *...  ugh.... oh well, just try to stop feeling, I suppose... 

Meursault

good for you, meursault, for giving it a shot.  warrior spirit! 

it's too bad you have to cut your wilderness trip short - i can tell you love doing that.  all hoping that it's worth it.  keep taking care of you.  sending peace your way.   big hug!

I am enrolled in the yoga teacher training!  Woohoo!!!

I haven't worked in a couple of years, and out of the blue, the owner of a business that was next to the place I was working in 2013 called me up on Monday.  He had tracked down my number.  HE called to offer me a job.    I feel pretty good about that, how he recognized my work ethic and all that jazz, and put in that much effort to try to hire me.

The woman I dated for a couple of months over the winter, whom I told I wasn't ready for sex yet, and who had been a friend for almost 25 years, sent me a letter in the mail.  It was six pages, and she was apologizing about how she treated me.  Makes me feel okay about that too.  I was just wondering what was so wrong with me.  She certainly behaved quite a bit different as a friend compared to a girlfriend.  She let me know that she has been feeling guilty about how she treated me and hopes I can forgive her and whatnot.  I texted her that I got the letter, and yeah, I've assumed we would be friends again at some point, but I'm not ready yet.

Therapy today was awesome.  I mentioned in the Inner Child category about playing Jenga.  There was a lot that happened, and we had 45 minutes of really good open ctalking and me being vulnerable before the Jenga came out.

She told me of the colleague she talked to that she wanted to enlist as another therapist for me.  He has a narrative approach, and she said that they figure, if I'm willing to do it, that the way to proceed would be for the three of us to sit down and talk about me.  Having my therapist say what is going on with me etc, and us answering his questions.  Sort of him interviewing us, and we interviewing him, all talking about this deeply painful and traumatic stuff from my life.  Hearing my therapist describe ME to a stranger in front of me.  Yikes.

Scares the bejeezus out of me, so I said I need to think about it.  I'm pretty sure I'll do it.  I trust that she doesn't want to hurt me, but it is still very scary!  I utterly hate the idea of a male therapist.  For some reason, I get really angry and defensive thinking about seeing a male therapist.  So I'm a little uncertain about that as well.  My therapist worked with him at some place for a few years, though, so I guess I can trust her assessment.

Anybody else ever do something like that?  I think I'll feel very exposed, and very much like a broken and severely damaged scientific curiosity when it happens.  Two therapists talking about me, in front of me!  I feel shaky just thinking about it!

For the wilderness trip, it will be 40ish days rather than 70ish, so it's still considerable.  I didn't have the nerve to read my poetry at that thing on the weekend. 

Meursault

QuoteAnybody else ever do something like that?

No, not exactly, but I did feel uncomfortable with a male as a therapist. But, decided to trust, and I really like him. I think he will be able to help. If nothing else I will be able to experience a compassionate, caring male and heal that spot a little.

i haven't done anything like that, either, but it sounds interesting to me in a positive way.  since he would be coming at the issues from a different modality, i would think that you would get different perspectives, perhaps a feeling of being anchored (i've heard that the most stable is 3 points, like a 3-legged stool), and a chance to explore that male-to-male anger you mentioned, get more insight on that. 

as far as those other incidents you mentioned, those just always reinforce for me how we never know what may be around the corner.  it's what helps keep me moving forward as much as possible. 

if you decide on this new way of therapy, i sincerely hope it turns out well for you.

and, 3roses, i'm glad you're finding some value out of what was once a scary proposition.  this stuff can certainly work in mysterious ways.

Good point about the tri-pod of relationships.  The only other therapist I really connected with was a guy actually, but it was a limited number of sessions allowed.  When I was seeing him, I "dumped" my best friend and his wife, who was really best friend #2.  I was the best man at their wedding and stuff like that too.  They had been married over a decade, and were in the process of trying to conceive.  Three weeks after I removed myself from the dynamic, she filed for divorce.  Meanwhile the last time I talked to her she was talking about how they might need a fertility expert because they were having a hard time conceiving. 

I mentioned it to that therapist, and he pointed out how stable relationships are usually tripods.  Once I was gone, they had to directly address each other without balancing off of me.  He mentioned that the third party doesn't always have to be a person, but can be a shared interest, a pet, anything really.  In a way, in therapy, I think my "Inner Child" has been functioning as that for my therapist and I.

Part of me is really scared about what my therapist will say about me.  I guess I'm worried about hearing some negative assessment from her.  Still, I guess I should hear it if she does.  She knows me better than anybody.

She reassured me that she is not trying to get rid of me, and said she hopes we work together for a long time yet, if I feel I need it.  She told me she can just see how much I'm hurting and how urgently I feel this need for connection and affection and thinks adding another aspect to my healing might help speed things up and also provide something she is unable to provide.

When she got one of the "Share" pieces when we played Jenga, she told me that she is sometimes worried she is not good enough at her job to give me the help I need.  It was kind of humanizing for her to tell me that, and sort of allows me to see her as more of an equal, rather than some idealized goddess on a pedestal!

Anyways....

Oops, I almost forgot.  I think I understand some of the anger i have towards males.  Partially because of my Dad, I think.  How he never helped me with my Mom.  He openly said he was glad I was around because then my Mom "took it out" on me instead of him.  Then I think any time I hear something positive come out a guys mouth, there is just this spiteful anger that rises up, and the thought goes through my head:  "Easy for you to say!  Women want you!  Now #@$@#!$ off."

Still, I think I'll have to go there eventually.  My therapist is exceptionally good looking, and I thought that would be a deal breaker, but it turns out it's the opposite, so I can easily be wrong on this.  Like Three Roses, I think there is a lot that needs to heal with someone like that.

Really, I think the best dynamic for me is a female therapist of roughly my age or slightly younger.  Older women carry a lot of issues especially with the skewed power dynamic of therapy.  Older male therapists can be okay, but there is a lot of hostility from me there, plus the way men think is usually not a good fit.  I hate being told how to "fix" me.  Younger males are sort of sexual competitors, and I hate them.  Plus it kills my self esteem when I see their various failings as well, and how they are happy and have a life and women want them, and yet my whole life has been stolen, despite having as much in me that is worth it as they have.  It demoralizes me badly.  That is likely the worst dynamic of all...

Meursault

well, meursault, i do hope you give this dynamic a chance.  i think you might be surprised.  and, that was a pretty vulnerable and courageous thing for your t to admit in front of you, that she's afraid she's not enough to help you, give you what you need.  to me that says that she is showing an example of wanting extra help herself in order to help you.  it's coming from a position of strength on her part, just like your willingness to give this a go (if you do) is coming from a position of strength on your part.

you have been through so much in the past years.  i'm glad to see that she's willing to go to whatever it takes to help you.  kudos to her, kudos to you.  i think you're a great team and this extra therapist will only be a positive addition to your dynamic.  i do believe that.  best to you with all this.  big hug!

Hi everyone....  I'm going to put up a couple of my poems.  The first one was written in the psych ward, four years after my Dad's death, when I first was finally able to mentally take a breath.  I'm a huge mythology geek, so most of the references would be lost on most people likely, but it all actually makes sense, even if it's inaccessible!  I actually made an annotation explaining the first one, and it took 12 pages.  I wrote the second one tonight, and they kind of work as book ends, I think....

Anyways:

Comes the Dawn – On the Death of My Father

I.
Comes the early-born, rosy-fingered dawn
Across a Zeus-fallen, mud-wet road.
Fortune wavering in sorrowed age,
Thumbing a ride bright-eyed
From drink to field.

Comes the early-born, rosy-fingered dawn
In grief and loss and Chthonic terror.
Comes a corpse-sodden son.
Comes the fattening field and drought-
Drenched mind in wine-watered loss.

Comes the early-born, rosy-fingered dawn
And shadows groping
From Eumenides long-balanced memory.

Comes the loom de-threaded.
Comes the father-slayer broken.
Comes Tisiphone in scouring dread,
Casting evil panic upon trusty hope.

Comes the scudding drift.
Comes the split-tongued sorceress's
Bewitching delicate chains;
Glaze-eyed swine queen with blackened
Heart.

Comes Poseidon's lumbering fool.
Comes the wine-black sun.
Comes the early-born, rosy-fingered dawn
Rending its Fury'd talon across forever.

II.
Comes the blackened, chaff-sparked night.
Father-burdened, Nyx-entombed,
Naiad-coupled.
Here climbs a Sisyphean boulder
To water's top-rippled edge
And tumbles again drowning.
Comes the dead and comes the dying.

Comes the blackened, chaff-sparked night.
Comes a lament from father-drowned.
And a father, Charon-bribed
Milling a son in wine-black terror.

Comes a son, father-ground.
And here there is a mill-wheel shattered.
Here a grist-shovelling soldier sneers
And baker kneading for Eumenidean feast.
Here the burning ovens.
Here the crackled loaf.
Here the dough encrusted.
Comes the blackened, chaff-sparked night.
Comes the early-born, rosy-fingered dawn.



Armistice Day - A Remembrance

How can I explain the terror,
Or the pounding that shook the world,
The disorientation
The smallness of me?
I can only say
"The War!  The War!"

I can't describe the numbing, the brokenness
Huddled in my trench
Awaiting the barrage of artillery
Creeping across the blasted emptiness
That separated the enemy and I,
I can only cry:
"The War!  The War!"

I can't make sense of the propaganda
In suspicious tone and accent
Blaring out across the plain
Ransacking my certainty
And filling me with doubt of my rightness
In my cause
And wondering at my own sanity
As I simply whisper:
"The War!  The War!"

I can't bear the loss
Of all my comrades
Who fell beside me
In the trench, or
Defected or
Were granted leave or
Sent to another posting,
As I cowered in the familiar muck,
Driven mad by the rats and fleas
In doubt and shame
The starvation of loneliness
The vacuum of touch
And the Cholera of despair
A seemingly endless sentry duty in
"The War!  The War!"

I dread the shame of reporting
The failures after failures
Of my tactics and campaigns,
As I lost ground,
Fled, broke, or lashed out at some
Phantom enemy position,
Going over the top, wildly
Desperately dashing
Vulnerable across open land
Toward strength and entrenchment
Looking the fool for my incompetence
In battle in
"The War!  The War!"

I can't bear the anguish, as
I see the faces of those who stayed behind and
Made lives and loves and grew into this world.
Who found connection and meaning and joy and peace
while I lost so many years in an arena which
Taught me to speak a language they do not understand,
Far away in
"The War!  The War!"

So I talk of tyrants and butchers,
Majors, Generals, and combat assaults,
Creeping barrages, Enfilades,
Triage, misery of cold and
Imminent death and disfigurement.
The devastation of divisions lost, routs,
Disease, discomfort, and powerlessness,
Scars, madness, and amputations,
Annihilation of squads, platoons, companies
Battalions,
A terror so powerful every cell exploded
In a different direction
With each falling shell,
As they speak of the same time --
Of the same place --
In a different language, and
With different emotion and call it
"Family, childhood, playing, growing, learning,
School, first dates, jobs, houses, lovers, children, and
Optimism of the future, while I can only
Mutter dumbly:
"The War!  The War!"

And now comes the dawn,
Comes the early-born, rosy-fingered dawn,
And now a strange silence,
The last echoes of
Bombs fading in the
Crisp new morning
Bouncing a diminishing
Repetition around me
"It's Over!  It's Over!
The War!  The War!"

pretty powerful stuff, meursault.  i did get a few of the images, but not all.  still, it did not diminish my overall understanding of what your words were saying to me.  your courage and strength shine through the terror and tragedy of your experiences.  nicely done.   big hug.

QuoteAnybody else ever do something like that?

Yes. About 8 months ago I got into my first relationship with a female therapist.  It's been harder to trust her.  I have always had male therapists.

So glad you were offered a job after two years of not working.  I haven't worked in two years - and I know it will feel wonderful to have that sense of purpose again when I get a job.

I admire you for going on those solo trips for all those years.  What a great experience.  I used to hike for hours with just me and my dog in a beautiful state park with hardly any people around.  I felt so content in nature. It feeds part of my soul.  I need to do that again.  I keep putting it off.   Despite your trauma you are doing things that are healthy like yoga.  It sounds like you have a good therapist too.  That's all very inspirational to me.

I gave my therapist the go ahead to schedule a session with the new guy.  She told me she won't charge me for her time, which I feel kind of guilty about, since she does so much for me.  She said it will sort of be like she and I interviewing him, and him interviewing her and I.  She is so careful with me, and was very reassuring me it will be SHE AND I, not me alone.  So I guess I'll give a guy therapist a try.  That wont happen for another week, though.

Meursault

Hey - how are you? Just wondering if you have had that meeting with the other therapist yet, and if so how it went.
:wave:

It happens next week.  I am feeling somewhat ambivalent.  But, I've been busy everyday doing yoga, and going to the gym and prepping for this years kayak trip...  I haven't been checking things out online much.

Thanks for asking Three Roses.  Hope everyone is managing okay.

Meursault

good luck with the meeting, meursault.  hope it goes really well.  big hug.