I am not sure if this is a Social Anxiety thing or a CPTSD thing but I need work on my eye contact. I am a great listener and will look folks in the eyes when they are talking, but when it's my turn to talk, I look away. I am not sure what this is about. I don't think it's lack of confidence, but it may be something about not wanting to be "seen". My therapist was pushing me because I can't look at her except for fleeting glimpses, unless of course, it's idle chit chat, then no problem. But if we TALK about eye contact, forget it, it's not happening.
Anyone else have this problem? I guess it doesn't present the best warm and fuzzies when I won't look at someone when I talk. I even do this with my S.O., where I will look away and then come back to a locked gaze. Weird, since this is the person I would trust with my life.
It's a hard habit to break. It takes dedicated focus!
I can relate. I'm often too tense and socially hypervigilant to simply hold a normal amount of relaxed eyecontact. I'm either avoiding people's eyes, or I'm keeping too much eyecontact, usually because I'm worried that I'd slide back into avoiding people's eyes. All or nothing. I'll probably have to watch more people talk to see how they do it, so I can then fake it till I make it. It's annoying though. In my teenage years, I was so lonely and isolated that I'm still self-conscious when it comes to the tiniest things. It's like: "this thing you earthlings call a con-vur-zay-shun: how does it function? Take me to your leader so he can inform me of the requisite paradigms."
For me, it is Shame.
I have worked through eye contact issue for me, but I still do it on occasion.
It seems like something that should be simple, doesn't it?
It as another way to avoid connection. Eye contact can also be incredibly intense.
My boss can have a wickedly icy look. I can't look at him when he has that look. I wonder what's lurking behind it.
Sometimes it's interesting to lock eyes with a stranger. Who looks away first?
Fake it til I make it. Yes. Fleeting glimpses. Hello, can you see my fear? Yeeesh.
Look away!!!!
btw, I love the picture under your name, is that you? A cat?
Yes that's a self portrait.
I have two cats.
When we have staring contests they usually look away first.
seriously, eye contact issues vary based on the individual, level of emotional investment, and an old habit that needs ome focus.
GT - do you know where you look when you look away? Do you look down?
The reason I ask is that I have heard that looking at someone keeps us in the present, whereas looking down puts us in the past. I know I often look down when I'm trying to recall something, which I guess makes it in the past. I've also linked looking down to shame (past again).
It's a bit of an interesting self-study to do.
That's an interesting question! I look UP or at the wall.
Some of it is for sure SA. I can be very careful at word choosing and formulating my thoughts which are easier without distraction. ..like being looked at ;-)
I have remarkable difficulty with this. Either I am intensely staring into their soul and make them uncomfortable (maybe my own projection) or they are looking into my worthless being which is terrifying! I think intimacy has a hard time when this is the starting point.
I often look at my wife and marvel when she is talking to someone. She will lean towards them and stare unflinchingly for ages into their eyes. People love her for it! She has no shame - sometimes to my consternation! But Oh - What a lovely way to be able to live.
Eye contact when others talk, yes. When I have something to say, no. Hadn't made that connection so that is for this topic. Thanks for bringing this up - it helped me think through the following.
For me it's the inner critic 'fact' that what I have to say is worthless, I'm being a bother to others by speaking. I'm here to serve, to listen, I'm not here to need anything myself, to have a worthwhile opinion or thought, unless it's to help others and serve. If I have a useful or helpful thought to share that's worth listening to up and to the point I've provided enough information at which point I'm interrupted and cut off. That's the message I've gotten since childhood. Praise only for help and service provided but not for being my own person. If I am caught being my own person it's taken away from me because uPDm will now do the same, feel the same, whatever I am she is too, I am consumed and swallowed up so I am no longer my own person.
Sorry, didn't mean to go that deep. My thoughts just sorta got away from me.
For me also I think it largely depends on the circumstances. If I don't think about is I make enough eye contact so that no one has ever accused me of having my head down and talking to the floor.
However if I think about it I become become 'paranoid?', uncomfortable and obsessed with it. I watch with a critical eye, so to speak, the nuances of the pupil being controlled by the iris and become quite alarmed and afraid when I see a sudden constriction.
I've never put that into words before! Maybe another door opening for me.
On an aside; I've been quite aware of the importance of eye contact, for a long time, since I was ripped off buying some cannabis. I met some 'oik' on the street (back in the days!) and after handing over several hundred quid was quite surprised when this honest chap didn't fulfill his side of the bargain. On retrospect, even though I was a fairly savvy dope dealer I had been fooled by his wide open, unflinching eyes. Think he must have glued them open with a botox anti-venom!
Quote from: schrödinger's cat on November 21, 2014, 09:33:18 AM
I can relate. I'm often too tense and socially hypervigilant to simply hold a normal amount of relaxed eyecontact. I'm either avoiding people's eyes, or I'm keeping too much eyecontact, usually because I'm worried that I'd slide back into avoiding people's eyes. All or nothing. I'll probably have to watch more people talk to see how they do it, so I can then fake it till I make it. It's annoying though. In my teenage years, I was so lonely and isolated that I'm still self-conscious when it comes to the tiniest things. It's like: "this thing you earthlings call a con-vur-zay-shun: how does it function? Take me to your leader so he can inform me of the requisite paradigms."
:rofl:
I died laughing!
This exactly describes my life right now! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I do the EXACT same thing and have puzzled over it as you are. I think I may do this because I am so careful about how much I let people in and, somehow, allowing eye contact lets people into my inner world. When someone else is talking, I have no problem making eye contact. I think there is something about the idea that I am conveying more than my words when I'm speaking, but not when I am listening. Does that make any sense?
I think it is a defense mechanism, outercalm, like you said, a way to keep people at a distance. I have been TRYING to work on this lately. It takes a lot of effort and consciousness! It's a deep seated HABIT. I usually talk along and then think, "oh, yeah, I need to look at this person". Avoiding the eyes is something I've been doing for as long as I can remember, but I don't think the protection it provided is necessary any more.
Yes ! I relate - over the years I practise a little more bit by bit and this seems to have had some results -
I still am not great at it - but it does depend who I'm talking to now as apposed to everyone-
For me I've seen it as a trust thing - trusting people has/ is a work in progress
And my shame - ashamed of who I am ( or more rightly what I have been led to believe I am which is not true
Practise practise is my experience - just a word at a time is fine and of course working on trust and shame in what ever ways you find healing for you
Best wishes x
Eye contact is often overrated.
How creepy is it if people are constantly prying into your eyes? Too much or too intense eye-contact is an indication of quite a few disturbing personality traits.
Also, eye contact is to a certain degree gender specific. For men it's important to know that females require more (in general of course), so if your wife/gf/female friend wants to have a "good talk", make the effort. For females, it might be a good idea to go along with his idea to take a stroll on the beach with your husband/bf/male friend if he expresses a will to "have a conversation". And stare in the far 'yonder'.
And vice versa of course.
Sexist? Not quite. A tool.
good grief! i just read this whole thread and what an eye-opener ('scuse the unintended pun) :blink:
i realised that i am one of the 'eye-contact when listening to another's deep and meaningful, none when talking about me' people.
in therapy i look at the door! (hmmm, significant or what?) and only glance at my T when i really have to. same in doc's office, same everywhere really. if i don't look, maybe they won't see me. i am ashamed, i think. of everything i am.
Yay :yes:
Eye contact...oh my. :sadno:
I've always had problems with this. I don't think I've felt comfortable with much eye contact ever, even with friends. It's not like I look away, I just shy away from the eyes, for most of the emotional reasons that have already been stated elsewhere in this thread.
But even the looking at someone in general would evade me with certain T's. An interesting exception was an early one who quickly surmised that my rather general reason for seeking her counsel only masked the cptsd symptoms she was seeing. When she said "I think what you're really dealing with is long-term ptsd"--my gaze went straight to her eyes, thinking she's hit on the truth, and I needed to see it in her eyes at that moment.
Nothing original in that, probably, but this topic does remind me, and this may/may not apply to many on this forum, that there can be cultural differences in how/why/when eye contact is made, or important, etc.
I live in a region with a large native tribal influence, and while it's changed lots over the years, there used to be a definite pattern of implied "rules" that one shouldn't use eye contact in certain ways. Without going into a laundry list of what situations dictated which form of eye contact, I only refer to it as a consideration to keep in mind.
While my emotional reactions to eye contact is pretty similar to many of yours, it seems like maybe some of the cultural factors have filtered into it, in my case.
Such a good topic to talk about
I have struggled with this for a long time - it has got better now but I still have a hang up
I somehow have this expectation that I SHOULD be able to give full eye contact at all times and to be honest people that do do this I find it's too much - like they aren't in themselves enough -
So I'm learning to have a balance of eye contact and looking away and being ok with that -
When I find eye contact more difficult eg don't know the person - don't feel comfortable with them I am learning to accept myself in that and know that I am giving off non verbal clues of my uncomfortability and that is OK
I've asked others for feedback on my eye contact and they say they haven't noticed any problems and so ( which isn't unusual) I feel I am a problem where I'm possibly not
Being myself is something I am getting used to now -
Not perfect - not always right
But
Good enough
Hi Globetrotter
Interesting thread. I had never thought much about my issue with this until reading your post.
Do you think that your social anxiety is to do with or as a result of what happened to you to make you have Cptsd?
I think they are all connected.
Friends in school pointed out that i dont look at teachers when they talk to me. I used to be nervous talking to them, and couldnt concentrate on my replies if i looked at them whilst speaking.
I have this all the time actually. I can look at someone, but - i cant explain it actually, its hard to put into words but I'm sure i will be able to when i figure out what this feeling / fear is.
I think i think that if i look at someone for too long, not only will they get freaked out, (weather i look too long or not)...but that they will see *into me*, they will see how worthless I am deep inside, they will be looking at me as I'm looking at them ,and they will notice more my shameful appearance.
Its all shame.
Especially talking to women , probably comes from my mother and fear of her and her criticalness.
I feel that the person I'm talking to will explode in front of me and will shame me and insult and criticise me.About my appearance, and other things that are worthless.
Hope that makes sense. Crazy that when i think about it.
I cant let myself be seen. I hate talking in front of a group, but i can do it if I'm ..more numb to it which i am on a regular basis.
Maybe as you trust this person with your life, it is more scary for you to have eye contact. As you fear somewhere in your sub contious that they will let you down?? Somehow?
I hope you can feel more conformable with this.
***TRIGGERS***(sorry)
This is why recovery is so hard.
The other day, I responded to this thread with some notes, in general terms, on how eye contact has always been troublesome for me.
That night it all came rushing back with a horrid flashback and I can't tamp it down. It explains why I'm petrified to make more than fleeting eye contact and what it does to me, why it can churn my stomach.
The details of what I recalled are a bit much for what needs saying, even if I could find the words or stomach to do so. Suffice to say the memory involves a demonic-looking principal/teacher holding me in a fierce stranglehold, saying nothing while he used his eyes to slowly devour me, breathing heavy, slow, and strange. I'd been beaten by this grunt before, badly, but this was worse--that horrid stare, the dingy bathroom we were in, the feeling that...I won't go further, other than to note that this disgraceful jolt was a kin of my mother, a church organist, a "pillar" of his community.
I feel ashamed for that whole time, all of it, and even to recall it...I should be stronger, all that self-message stuff that I'm really no good. I hate it. But those eyes, that may have been the worst.
Maybe I can sleep tonight; maybe. It's past 2 a.m.; probably not. Unless the crying does it.
:hug: oh i am so sorry. i am so angry for you and i want to shout at the great fat lump of a bully who did that stuff to you. i want to say terrible things to him for you and beat him back. i hate bullies. i hate em.
i wish i could make him take back all that shame and ugliness he pushed on to you. you don't deserve to take all that shame, it doesn't belong in your soul, it's his, the unspeakable man.
how hard it is to give back the shame to the people it rightly belongs to.
i hope u managed to get some sleep. and a good cry.
thinking of you and sending a big :hug:
Woodsgnome, how utterly terrifying! Seems as if the fear of this monster was at the time worse than the beating.
I hope you were able to sleep. Maybe recognizing this demon will eventually help to place him in the past.
Globetrotter,
I think this is a great topic and I am glad you brought it up, although I am sorry you struggle with it. I posted this before, but it was a bit too graphic and I needed to shorten it up.
I also have trouble with eye contact and social anxiety. I mean clearly you don't have to look at someone to hear what they are saying, but I was actually conditioned to not look at people in a certain abusive relationship. I never looked at people the same and struggled with eye contact since then.
I think eye contact is very important, for example, while walking down the street, if you see a predator, its important you look into that person's eyes and show your awareness in order to protect yourself, so I can see why it is concerning, and I understand how frustrating it can be.
I am working on it now.
I hope it's gotten better.
Southbound
Presentations were a nightmare for me too.
Im sorry you had to do them and go through that!!
I also hope you didnt want to be a lecturer, if so, that sucks.
I only did about two in school, but my knees wouldnt stop shaking the entire time. Apparently i sounded very confident, but i was so conscious of being looked at and that everyone would notice my trembling knees...and they *really* shook.
I could not look out either doing presentation. You dont want to go blank , and my word cards were a lucky thing to have.
Doing a school production one time, i think my mum came to it, i cant remember, but I was shaking, my knees wouldnt stop violently shaking. I dont remember what happened at home before the play, but i felt awful and like i shouldn't be there. I thought to myself that next year I'm not doing another production.
Toastmasters, ive been asked to join that too, i said no, that i didnt do speeches, i havent even been along to just listen, she said i could just listen and only speak when i feel ready. Sounds great, but i feel i know how it will go.
Indigo, I can't begin to say how petrified I was to ever give a speech, let alone the tons of speaking/acting roles I've performed for years since I first "fell into" speaking. Stage fright has never left, and my horrible inner critic always trots right along. Funny, some of my worst performances seemed to happen when I was most relaxed.
Stage fright serves a purpose, I guess. No one who knows me otherwise would ever suspect that I've successfully spoken to some pretty large crowds over the years.
I had a friend who went the toastmasters route, and gained enormously from it; he always had the jitters, but one would never know it, and he accomplished a lot because he was able to do so.
In my case, I'd developed a behind-the-scenes reputation in a topic that was being presented in a quasi-theatrical setting and I was just asked to "say something" about my expertise...and it came off well. Here's the shocker, though--I think one reason it did come off well, was actually my fear of doing it in the first place!
Because I was so petrified, I think I actually (nervously) found myself hamming it up a little, but the audience loved it. That one-night stand led to an unlikely career in acting (albeit supplemented with several "supporting" mini-careers). This would shock anyone who knows me only offstage. Once when I did an audition in a distant city, I stayed overnight with some people whose reaction after was "but you're not like that at all, are you?" Well, surprised them, but not me.
I still, good as "they" all say I was, shy away from actively seeking speaking/acting gigs, though; 'cause just being around people still terrifies me and I'm class A hermit/avoidant/freeze sort besides.
Eye contact? Well, I never got there, it terrifies me, but I found I could still speak without tripping myself out about it. It did help that I had the expertise behind the performance. But I also developed a method where I just kind of look "over" the heads of the audience--no one's ever detected or commented on my doing it.
I've learned to ignore even trying for eye contact--I know that's my achilles heel, for sure. Although I DO notice many times when I see other speakers use exactly the same "over the head" technique I mentioned. But also, speaking in front of a group isn't at all like, say, sitting across a table as happens in FtoF type conversation--they all blend in and you don't especially notice the eyes.
I actually have a gig coming up in October that I'm very reluctant about; I'm already nervous as * about it. One good deal--it's being done in candlelight! Won't be easy to see those darting eyes following my every move.
So if you have a particular expertise in something, perhaps that's a starting point, if you get a chance or are asked to speak? Just stick to what you know without worrying about the eyes.
Your last line--"Sounds great, but i feel i know how it will go."--struck me big-time. Well, take a chance and "don't know". At least your mum won't be there? I had the advantage that my entire performance career happened after I'd left the FOO entirely.
My stage-fright is horrendous, as I've said--and there were a couple occasions when I had to physically remove myself, even to an offstage closet to clear the mind (sometimes it even works into the act ;)). Eye contact? Forget it, can't do it. I was shocked enough to find I could do stage roles, given my severe people phobias.
So, for what it's worth (probably not much), just wanted to share some thoughts that came to mind when I read your post. It's familiar ground for me, a huge concern/fear of mine that's never left. I'd like to say it's easy and my good times were because I "just got over it", but we all know the hypocrisy of that one. ;)
i do the all or nothing also... worried they will know how tense i am so i look right in the persons eyes then worried i am scaring them with my intensity... then i feel like nothing i say matters and i am talking up too much time so i look away....
hima
Oh my goodness - yes! Such a bittersweet relief to hear that so many others struggle with the same thing that I've been trying to work on for years.
Generally speaking, I'm not great with eye contact. Sometimes it's okay, sometimes it stresses me out a bit, and sometimes I am super-tense trying to figure out how long I should make eye contact to be socially appropriate but also not creepy.
With my T, though, it's a pretty constant stressor. Just today I was in town and saw someone that looked vaguely like my T and felt terrible because I realized I avoid so much eye contact with her (even after being with her for years) that I couldn't be certain if someone was her if I ran into her in public. I think making more eye contact is on my therapy appointment to-work-on list just about every week but I rarely am able to do make more than brief glances (especially when I am feeling any emotion).
Once, in an appointment, we tried to really work on it together - spend stretches of time explicitly making eye contact (behavioral work). I found myself dealing with some strange, massive feelings of grief the week after. I think it's made me gun-shy (which is sometimes what it feels like, like staring into a loaded gun).
It's a beast to tackle but one that I am still determined to conquer - and I think it would be a huge win for anyone with this issue to overcome (however long it may take to do so).
Big green sea
Quote
'Like staring into a loaded gun '
Thank u what a great way to express what I feel
On the flip side I read that people who are listening intently will often break eye contact to concentrate better on what they are hearing.
I don't think it's that big a deal to others. Not enough that you should worry.
I don't like when some people give full eye contact weird s me out and with others it's nice - I
I can only assume it's the same for others
I now give as much as I'm comfortable with and don't
Beat myself up -
I think that's the important bit to accept me as I am right now
Eye contact or not :)
Quote from: tired on November 03, 2015, 06:45:55 PM
On the flip side I read that people who are listening intently will often break eye contact to concentrate better on what they are hearing.
I have noticed I do this, deliberately*, as well.
It's circumstantial though: there are also times when I deliberately* focus on the physical person: body language, posture, eye contact, tone of voice etc., in particular if I hardly have a clue on what they are talking about.
An example of this is: I have a dear friend who is an IC-nurse and who, at times, shares about her experiences there. Obviously there are very sick people at the Intensive Care, and quite a few patients leave her ward disabled in some way, and there are those who die, and there are those who are 'send off' to die at home: no amount of medical help can cure them.
Now, that is so alien to my personal experiences, that no matter how much verbal information she gives me, to be empathetic to her 'story', I can only rely on my perception of her non-verbal language to make a connection to the message she is trying to share/get across.
And then I haven't even mentioned the medical jargon, that I try to skip as much as possible, so not to interrupt her 'flow'. She does not tell me these stories for the 'medical value', but for her 'emotional value'. I try to only ask her "Huh, what's [jargon-term] X?" if I realize that I actually may have lost out on some important information that was hidden (for a non-medic) in the jargon. More often than not the jargon is not essential to the story she wants to share with her dear friend (me in this case ;D ).
*) deliberate sounds more 'rational' than what I actually mean. 'Consciously' is possibly a better term. I am
aware I do this, though not as well 'thought out' as I just typed up. Not in those moments at least that I
am aware of my focus shifting from 'words' to 'view' or vice versa.
I've had similar experiences.
My daughter was diagnosed with add partly from the eye contact issue which I think was not relevant. It was proven that even when she was looking away she was hearing everything and she is now very social and has excellent interpersonal skills.