Emotional incest and enmeshment

[Kizzie]

Hi Butterfly - yes the cancer is in remission thankfully, so many women lose their lives to but I was one of the lucky ones.  At a walk in Calgary to raise awareness this type of cancer a few years back, the coordinator asked survivors to step to the front and lead the walk. Out of about 500 people 9 of us stepped forward. It was one of those moments in life when everything stops becasue it is a lifechanging understanding of something that is deeply sad.   

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that when my M phoned she told me about all the people who had phoned her because they knew she was upset - she was enjoying all the attention and using my life threatening disease to do it just like your M. It triggered one of the worst EFs I ever had although I did not know what was happening then.

It is a huge loss and truly, truly sad that we did not have parents who could love and support us in the way we deserve. Walker is so right when he suggests that those of us with CPTSD need to anger and grieve for what we lost in the past, can't have now in the present and what we will never be available in the future in order to recover.  I used to get so angry when people would say "Forgive and forget" and rightly so - the only way out of trauma is through it - stuffing/ignoring/denying/minimizing does nothing.  The positive thing for me about Walker's work is that it affirms our need to be angry and grieve as a way to recovery, to move out of the FOG/storm. 

I like what you said about it being sad that your M is unable to receive the love and caring she could have.  I've found that as I do work through my anger and grief I am becoming more compassionate. I am sad that my FOO because they have lost so much due to a disorder that is a result of the intergenerational cycle of abuse/neglect. 

[Butterfly]

Words of wisdom Kizzie, words of wisdom. Compassion for "they have lost so much due to a disorder that is a result of the intergenerational cycle of abuse/neglect"

So glad you're in remission but wow 9 out of 500, that must've been so surreal to step forward through the crowd and be one of the few. Ultra sickening your M would use your cancer to gain sympathy.

"stuffing/ignoring/denying/minimizing" I once had a TCM doctor tell me if I didn't learn to express and continued to stuff it would kill me. Sadly. He told me this nearly 9 years ago. Better late than never I suppose.

Thank you for being here and creating this site.

[schrödinger's cat]

My computer seems to have eaten the reply I thought I'd posted. I wanted to thank Butterfly for her definition and for her kind words. So: thanks! Funny thing - I thought about the Borg too.

Kizzie, glad to hear you're in remission. I can't even begin to feel what it would be like to have someone steal sympathy from me. A woman of my acquaintance did that once to her mother. It was just surreal to witness. I remember thinking that she has something predatory about her, like a part of her always lies in wait and jealously eyes the good things you have, and if she sees something she wants for herself, she darts out of cover and snatches it. "Mine mine mine."

[Annegirl]

Yes it's so awful that. Just found out about emotional incest from Ross Rosenberg on YouTube. My mother was like that too. I looked after the whole household, my younger siblings my father etc...And I'm so sad to see SO many mothers like that out there. I remember a friend of mine when I lived in NZ telling me while her baby was crying so badly in the other room "no this is the only way they will learn about nap time" I tried to tell her babies need your touch and connection and they sleep when they are tired not when we find the convenient time and try to force them to sleep.  I think there are varying degrees but this type of thing is harmful to children and that is why our society has so many mental health issues.

[Badmemories]

I agree to what YOU ar saying! My mother had the babies on strict schedules. I remember people telling me when i had babies "let them cry" I refused to do that! If they are crying then there is a reason. I used to think Hungry, Angry,Lonely,and Tired. HALT  and sometimes a diaper change... No wonder so many of us are mentally ill!

[Annegirl]

You're so on to it Bad memories!!! Good for you not listening to those pushing you to let them cry, I too had many people pushing me about that and I even tried it for 5 minutes or so with my son, but never again.
I'm really happy and so impressed after everything you went through you didn't follow the pattern, that's probably one reason why you have a relationship with your grandchildren. Your children etc trust you.

[Badmemories]

Thank You Annie,

Even though I did not know about CPTSD and was not even diagnoised with Bi-polar disorder then I knew that there Had to be a better way! I read everything on parenting I could when I was parenting. My Son was ADDH I read everything on that too!

I am a gentle spirit... In the trailer court the cats and dogs even follow me around! kids follow me around. I have always tried to make any kids life better. In the trailer court that I lived in before( bad poverty, drinking and drugging parents,) I knew the kids well and was always giving out snacks, they all would come to my house IF for some reason their parents did not make it home when school was out. I still get grown Kids that I don't even remember coming up to me and saying Hi when I go to the town to shop. i guess that is My "calling in life".  I guess IF MY life wouldn't have been so screwed up I think I would have liked to be a teacher. so much power helping kids! Something that lasts for generations!

[Annegirl]

I think what you do/did is better than teaching. You were there for them even after school, when they needed you.

[schrödinger's cat]

Good for you not listening to those pushing you to let them cry, I too had many people pushing me about that and I even tried it for 5 minutes or so with my son, but never again.

Someone talked me into that too, once - my baby was hungry, and a friend said: "if you keep her busy for a time, she'll learn to not be hungry so often." She even offered to help, and carried my baby around, showing her things. My little one was very interested - but even so, when I took her back, she gave me such an indignant look, like she was thinking: "WHERE WERE YOU??" She was only a few weeks old! I never, ever did that again. I never pushed any of my kids into independence - I'm letting them set their own timescale. They're ready when they're ready, end of story.

But doesn't that just prove that even tiny children really FEEL parental abandonment, even in such tiny, "trivial" things? So much for the argument that "you were so tiny, you don't remember a thing".

[Annegirl]

. My little one was very interested - but even so, when I took her back, she gave me such an indignant look, like she was thinking: "WHERE WERE YOU??" She was only a few weeks old! I never, ever did that again. I never pushed any of my kids into independence - I'm letting them set their own timescale. They're ready when they're ready, end of story.

But doesn't that just prove that even tiny children really FEEL parental abandonment, even in such tiny, "trivial" things? So much for the argument that "you were so tiny, you don't remember a thing".

It is a credit to you that you were/ are so in tune with you LO ( little one's) needs. Yes it's amazing the trust versus mistrust thing is one of the first things they are learning and it gets attacked by many authors etc

[Butterfly]

How in the world can a baby learn not to be hungry?!?!?!? I can't learn not to be hungry, its a body function for goodness sake. Crazy really crazy.

[Annegirl]

Yes Butterfly, it's amazing how people promote letting the baby 'cry it out' to teach them to 'self soothe'  our unconditional love and touch and holding them teaches them to feel safe and loved while they are crying. This helps the brain develop properly and stops them from having depressed or anxious problems later on in life where they feel guilty for being sad or angry etc. it lets them know it is ok to have these feelings and  that they are normal and that they can handle them because we  comfort them. If we isolate them while they are crying all the wrong chemicals start developing in the brain, fight flight response starts already and  they learn that their strong feelings are bad and not listened to.

It is a huge loss and truly, truly sad that we did not have parents who could love and support us in the way we deserve. Walker is so right when he suggests that those of us with CPTSD need to anger and grieve for what we lost in the past, can't have now in the present and what we will never be available in the future in order to recover.  I used to get so angry when people would say "Forgive and forget" and rightly so - the only way out of trauma is through it - stuffing/ignoring/denying/minimizing does nothing.  The positive thing for me about Walker's work is that it affirms our need to be angry and grieve as a way to recovery, to move out of the FOG/storm. 

I like what you said about it being sad that your M is unable to receive the love and caring she could have.  I've found that as I do work through my anger and grief I am becoming more compassionate. I am sad that my FOO because they have lost so much due to a disorder that is a result of the intergenerational cycle of abuse/neglect. 

This is good to hear Kizzie sometimes I feel guilty thinking about the past, just today my bro rang up for my bday and he said I shouldn't think about the past...... I wish I couldn't I want to forget. Sometimes I can forget but then I believe you are right more compassion comes from going through it and grieving. And anger helps me to vent and then let go of it.

[Milarepa]

Because despite my 'no' she takes without my permission what belongs to me, what is mine alone, and makes it her own. It was a painful realization for me.

I vibe so strongly with this, I can't even tell you. By and large, I think emotional incest and enmeshment are present in most C-PTSD generating families. The lack of healthy boundaries is just devastating.

Both of my parents were emotionally incestuous towards me, but it was especially bad with my dad. He was so *needy* and constantly manipulated me with guilt whenever I said "no" or set boundaries of any kind. It was like he had no ability to differentiate between mother, wife, and daughter; it was all just the feminine pressed into the service of King Baby.

[Trigger warning]

To this day, I feel gross whenever I think of how it was. It's like his sloppy, sweaty, messy, smelly little stunted baby boy penis was all over me all the time. Even though I have no memory of any sexual abuse, I get so triggered during sex sometimes that it feels like my father is in the room.

[Badmemories]

Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert!  Trigger alert! 


For My whole life  I have had this sexual feeling that I could never identify. a certain touch kind of feeling. It is something that I am always on the look out to see what causes this sensation. well... I finally realized what it was quit by accident this week. Now that i know what caused this feeling then I am just sick to MY stomach. Since all I remember is the FEEL then I don't remember, who,when what where how, etc. So I must have been VERY YOUNG.



What I realized is someone had oral sex with me! I am hoping that since My brain finally let me know what the feeling was...I am hoping it will find me trustworthy to let me know the details. 

Keep on keeping on!

[schrödinger's cat]

Oh yikes. I'm so sorry to hear that, Badmemories.    I can imagine that this must have simply freaked you out. How are you doing now? Are you alright? Do you have any ways of digesting that memory?